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That’s my point. Why are we going all in on this, our national security is not threatened and NATO hasn’t been attacked. We are making the situation much worse (like we always do), best to stay out except for massive humanitarian aid.
I say if these groups want to make a difference then why don't they take a more direct approach with what's going on in Yemen or Ethiopia? Oh wait, I believe the UN shut down the investigation into war crimes perpetrated by the Saudis back in 2021. Don't forget about what's amounting to an ethnic cleansing of portions of northern Syria against the Kurds by Turkey.
If there was consistency here then Turkey and Saudi Arabia should be turned into pariah states, maybe the former having its membership in NATO stripped away.
It wouldn't matter if Russia were to disengage from Ukraine tomorrow and cede everything, including the historically Russian territory of Crimea, to that nation. The world would continue to apply pressure in the hopes of manipulating Russia into a malleable puppet state they can control. Meanwhile who knows what reprisals would get meted out against the ethnic Russians, Russian speakers or people accused of being Russian 'sympathisers' in the Donbass and Crimea. You'd have a humanitarian disaster fomented on just that matter and the West would no doubt turn a blind eye to it all. It's seeming like the West facilitated it actually through their financing and training of extremist groups in Ukraine.
I say if these groups want to make a difference then why don't they take a more direct approach with what's going on in Yemen or Ethiopia? Oh wait, I believe the UN shut down the investigation into war crimes perpetrated by the Saudis back in 2021. Don't forget about what's amounting to an ethnic cleansing of portions of northern Syria against the Kurds by Turkey.
If there was consistency here then Turkey and Saudi Arabia should be turned into pariah states, maybe the former having its membership in NATO stripped away.
It wouldn't matter if Russia were to disengage from Ukraine tomorrow and cede everything, including the historically Russian territory of Crimea, to that nation. The world would continue to apply pressure in the hopes of manipulating Russia into a malleable puppet state they can control. Meanwhile who knows what reprisals would get meted out against the ethnic Russians, Russian speakers or people accused of being Russian 'sympathisers' in the Donbass and Crimea. You'd have a humanitarian disaster fomented on just that matter and the West would no doubt turn a blind eye to it all. It's seeming like the West facilitated it actually through their financing and training of extremist groups in Ukraine.
You know...none of this would be happening if Putin hadn't invaded Ukraine....in one of the poorest battle plans in military history.
Too late for direct war with Russia that will lead to utter destruction. Imagine if Russia armed Iraq to the teeth and fed them direct war intelligence and they used those weapons and intel to kill our marines, that is what is happening right now.
Primarily focused on the humanitarian aspect and the history... no strong opinion how the US should act to resolve a conflict that may well have no clean ending. Iraq, however, is not a good comparison. This is about a nation with nukes using those nukes as a shield to outright invade (for Ukraine) then presumably bully other countries in what was thought to be a stable Europe.
China (for Taiwan) and North Korea (for South Korea) are watching. If countries like Russia can develop a 'nuclear based' foreign policy then that emboldens others. Countries that agreed to not develop nuclear weapons may choose differently. For example, Ukraine gave up its nuclear arsenal in the 1990s after receiving assurances from the US and Russia that it would be 'protected.'
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Originally Posted by VikingsToValhalla
They hunt journalists for reporting "wrong think" as well.
How are they acting any differently from the Russians?
The U.S. should not be supporting either side.
Ultimately, elections should be held in the Donbas, to allow the people there to choose their own fate -- let them decide which nation they wish to be apart of.
About one-half of the Donbas people have fled, some now in Eastern Ukraine. Do they get a vote? Russia has been papering citizenship on the Donetsk and Luhansk, with a substantial number now living in Russia. What about them? Conduct a vote when Russian tanks remain in the territory or should Ukraine first have control over its borders? Who designs and monitors the election?
In 2014, a number of individuals who themselves had multiple objectives, including self-interest turned to violence. This the result.
Humanitarian aid, and perhaps some help rebuilding, afterwards.
There's also the little matter of having an acknowledged neo-Nazi contingent participating in the war, scooping up armaments as they pour in. That seems to me like arming a wild card. No one knows what they're do after it's all over. Will they become a subversive rogue force, armed courtesy of NATO? It's a valid concern. There was a time when we supported and armed Bin Laden, too. Does anyone in charge remember how that turned out??
Please.....Ukraine has free agency....they can make a deal anytime they choose.....as long as they show the will to fight....the west will support them.
Yes and no. That money has strings attached and the main string is keep fighting or that money stops. This isn’t a charity case and US wants returns on its investment, which is a weakened Russia. US gives the money and weapons, Ukraine gives the lives that’s the deal.
They don’t exactly have full free agency, this is the reason we have to paint the picture in the media that Ukraine is winning, because it’s harder to back a losing cause with the general public. That’s like saying a US congressman has free agency when their largest donors demand they vote a certain way.
Finding her more personable than some (less bombast), I actually watched some . ... but I keep stopping to look stuff up. How can people not want to know numbers or dates is beyond me. So much easier just to be fed video pablum.
Only got to 6 minutes and already have a list, of what she's not saying or distorting. Really have to go but so far:
ONE - She uses the UN figures for total deaths during the Donbas conflict (saying 13,000 its really over 14,000) but then stops there leaving the impression these are civilian deaths caused by the government. The majority by far are combatants, shelling on both sides. Most occurred in 2014-2015. Provided the UN data twice earlier in this thread.
Says the shelling never stopped. True if referring to the ceasefire line, and gray zone (buffer area still occupied). STILL: About 10 civilians died each year in separatist zone from active hostilities (that includes shelling) during 2019-21; also civilian deaths from separatist shelling in the government zone.
Want to know shelling locations: look at UN-OSCE (that monitors both the ceasefire line and interior) data on shelling, which is a violation of the Minsk II agreement.
Point being: she conflates combatant deaths with civilian, counts ethnic Ukrainian deaths or others that opposed separatism (before many fled), ignores the trend line and pre-invasion relative quiet.
TWO - She gives the impression this is Ukraine against the Donbas, going into this whole segue about labels, saying something like: People who live here are ethnic Russian so hence they are pro-Russian. Wrong, or at least it was wrong at the time of the conflict outbreak. The most recent census (2001):
Donetsk city: Russians 48.15% - Ukrainians: 46.65%. Majority ethnic Ukrainian in Donetsk & Luhansk. What about language? Donetsk region: Russian native language - 74.9% Ukrainian - 24.1%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk#Demographics
Point being: separatism militarized and supported by Russian troops opposed by Ukraine hurt civilians of both ethnicities, certainly during the height of the fighting in 2014-2015. About half of the Donbas population within the separatist zones has since fled. Run as a police states, proportionally more today in Donetsk and Luhansk probably are now 'ethnic Russian / pro-Russian supporters.' Same true for portions of heavily Russian Mariupol, a city in the Donbas.
THREE - The poor Russians just had to shell Mariupol to fight Ukrainians who entered apartment buildings etc. (as did Russians, for this is what street fighting is all about). Shelling often is from a distance, even tanks have a wide range. That's why the entire city is largely leveled, not because 'Azov' was in every building.
This was a siege. Russia wanted in. Ukraine said no. Mariupol was surrounded. What about Ukrainian shelling? Almost certainly the Ukrainians brought some tanks and artillery with them into the zone as they were forced back. Re-supply of shells probably limited. Again there will be numbers for this, somewhere. You'll never find them on this kind of video.
FOUR - The mass graves. She ridicules the Mariupol mayor for using the term war crime about the number dead. Visits a site of about 400 separate graves. Disputes his characterization. That's NOT what he was referring to, but instead to now two satellite images. Multiple multiple reports of large numbers of dead on the streets in the city. The bodies had to go somewhere. Not all into her tidy plot.
My larger objection is to the stupidity of such videos used to somehow justify this humanitarian disaster. Really offensive to the victims.. Does she take donations? Please pay Patrick Lancaster for his fearless war reporting. I have much more respect for the Russian embedded reporters.
Well said.
Since you are so well-aware of all the details, can you please tell me, how many of those civilians evacuated from Azov Steel lately, chose to move to Ukraine, and how many - to Russia/LDNR?
It's a proxy war between the US and Russia. We're using Ukraine as pawns and paying Zelensky off handsomely I may add.
Yeah, I heard Zelensky's buying a mansion near Myrtle Beach....
maybe you and him can be golfing buddies
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