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Old 05-24-2022, 11:30 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,915 posts, read 24,596,386 times
Reputation: 9709

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight View Post
I cannot support any country that attempts to annex another through force decimating cities and killing innocent civilians. We wouldn't be supporting any country attempting to increase their borders through brutal force and I'm not buying you personal opinion that they are Nazi's.
Russia is not annexing anything. When liberated regions WANT to become part of Russia, how is that Russia's fault? And when you look at the Donbas, those people did not even plan to become independent, Putin was initially against it and only recognized their independence 8 years after they declared themselves independent.
Those people want to become independent or part of Russia BECAUSE of Ukraine's oppressive behavior towards them. Why would Americans not understand that when they openly support separatists in Taiwan?

Russia is not killing innocent civilians, although the occasional collateral damage can't be ruled out, not least because the Ukrainians are pu***es that love to hide behind civilians. So they kick civilians out of their apartments and shoot from windows at Russians AND Ukrainians civilians. There are hundreds of interviews with Ukrainians victims of such attacks, but the West doesn't care.

It is not my personal opinion, they ARE nazis, they openly admit it, and they proudly show it by tattooing nazi symbolism all over their bodies. Why do Russians find Mein Kampf, nazi flags etc. in Azov quarters if those guys are not nazis?

 
Old 05-24-2022, 11:31 AM
 
26,721 posts, read 22,298,665 times
Reputation: 9994
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Canada was probably the most successful Ukrainian diaspora , and it was composed of the Western variety primarily.

Of course.

That's where they were moving in droves after the WWII for the obvious reasons.

Quote:
Naturally one is infecting the other with same sort of ideology. The options are limited for the NED style destabilization tactics. Russian and Ukraine are both Orthodox.
At this point Zelensky government doubled down on cutting Ukrainian church from the Russian one.

( Poroshenko with the help of American diplomats started this process before him. I already posted all the links on this thread.)

Quote:
Russian and Ukraine are just neoliberal states , just like the West. There is no "we capitalist, they pink commies" anymore.
All true.
Quote:
All that is left is some kind of "national identity", based on a language which only the poor will use again instead of English/German Polish in the upper classes. Perhaps how they batter their chicken may be emphasized as well. . This is encouraged by the West , just like Austria, and Germany used Ukrainian identity to despoil the Poles.
Well, there was something else, something very dangerous that happened in Ukrainian society within the last eight years.

I will be very careful posting this - I'll do it in the shortened form, but the bottom line will remain clear;

"One gets the impression lately that Azov regiment - is discussed now by half of humanity. The Pope, the UN chairman, and other "dear partners" speak about it.
On television, yesterdays' epidemiological experts were reclassified as experts in neo-Nazi cults. So what is this "Azov," what this is all about?
The Azov Regiment began its history in the already distant 2014. In spring time. Few remember the appeal of the "little black men" from the Kharkov region. These people were gathered by the well-known Nazi Biletsky in the Kharkiv region, Avakov's closest confidant, who provides various street activities to this Ukrainian politician. Biletsky gathered these future Azov people from soccer hooligans,, Kharkov neo-Nazis and former athletes.
These were the people from whom the "Azov" movement grew.
Then there were the May battles for Mariupol ( back in 2014.)
Actually, you won’t remember any more bright military victories in the military wing of the Azov movement during the war. In the areas where they operated for 8 years (Shirokino, Zolotoe), there were no bright breakthroughs and victorious battles. What can not be said about their social activities.
From an unknown field detachment, Azov turned into a national movement. And after they began to conduct pagan rituals and called themselves Azov (ASHOV - the house of aces), pagan Russian-speaking youth poured in there. Azov has become fashionable among right-wing radicals throughout Europe. It began to represent himself as a "civilian corps", a public movement for the upbringing of children, and the military unit itself as part of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.
Financing in various periods was provided by almost all the top oligarchs of Ukraine, both Kolomoisky and Akhmetov.

...And after Biletsky left for politics, the unknown to anyone Prokopenko remained in charge of the the military wing of Azov.. He became recognizable to the general public only when he refused to salute Zelensky during the award (there was this fashionable flash mob among the Ukrainian military). Mariupol became the headquarters of Azov - a city was given to it as its own fiefdom.
The headquarters and one of the battalions of the regiment were located in Mariupol. Other battalions, including the most numerous, were created in Kharkov ("Freikor" and "Kraken"), and Dnepropetrovsk (TRO Dnepr). Leaders and iconic figures of the movement concentrated in Kiev.
At the moment, the headquarters and the Mariupol branch of the regiment have been destroyed. The regiment itself was replenished with numerous supporters from the "civilian corps", its own mobilization reserve and is fighting mainly in the Kharkov direction. It were the TRO Dnepr and the "Kraken" that were noted for torturing our POWs.

...It must be repeated that the regiment is composed mainly of Russian speakers and professes white racism and neo-Nazism. It will not work to re-educate or enlighten them. It is these people who will try to transfer the war to the territory of Russia."

https://t.me/vladlentatarsky/13754

So in essence, the Russians are fighting against their own in Donbass ( if to keep in mind that Eastern Ukrainians and Russians are interchangeable,) and that's big part of why these current battles in Donbass are so bloody, so protracted and so difficult.

Quote:
Anyway, Ukraine is going on the back burner as the Western effort to keep the regime afloat slowly dies.Most ..mericans have moved on to monkeypox/ Pacific theater , and wood burning stoves. Speaking of Poland, I expect them to play for their old territories and get NATO countries, like Norway for example, to help pay the bill. Eastern Ukrainians and Russians are practically as interchangeable as the Russian and Ukrainian gauges of track. However we already see the attempted blurring of the two peoples by Poland. We will see how much Catholicism and Ukrainian/Polish come into play which will be far more problematic , depending on what level both places are now far more secular than they used to be,
I don't know who is going to pay the bill exactly, but I agree that Poland most likely will make a move for its old historic territories in Ukraine.

Last edited by erasure; 05-24-2022 at 11:44 AM..
 
Old 05-24-2022, 11:33 AM
 
51,588 posts, read 25,547,985 times
Reputation: 37775
Hard to imagine the Ukrainians going along with appeasing Putin by letting Russia hang on to the territory they invaded in 2014.

In any case, it is up to them.
 
Old 05-24-2022, 11:36 AM
Status: "A solution in search of a problem" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
34,539 posts, read 16,611,262 times
Reputation: 29700
Quote:
Originally Posted by serger View Post
Lol, is this some sort of a justification of the completely unnecessary firebombing of Dresden that killed 10s of thousands of civilians?
Unfortunately, until that happened the German people were quite happy to fight on.
 
Old 05-24-2022, 11:39 AM
 
51,588 posts, read 25,547,985 times
Reputation: 37775
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
I totally agree. See War, to Humane, Must be Total. The civilized world has always tried to limit the bloodshed of war initially.

Both the Civil War and WW II ended when the victors became serious about fighting. General Sherman's "March to the Sea", which devastated large swaths of Georgia, convinced the remaining Confederates that their cause was hopeless. The Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki attacks, in my view, for the first time convinced the German and Japanese people, respectively, that their "leadership" was taking them one place; to the grave.
Bingo.

Either the Russian military takes a serious beat down, or the Ukrainians, etc. will be fighting them again before long.
 
Old 05-24-2022, 11:48 AM
 
8,898 posts, read 11,678,490 times
Reputation: 10805
Da da da da....suicide drone taking out Russian tank.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fhjoyMgqUg
 
Old 05-24-2022, 11:48 AM
 
26,721 posts, read 22,298,665 times
Reputation: 9994
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
Hard to imagine the Ukrainians going along with appeasing Putin by letting Russia hang on to the territory they invaded in 2014.

In any case, it is up to them.

Russians didn't invade anything back in 2014. ( If they would have, Donbass would have been Russian already long time ago.)


But Russians got involved in the proxy war started by Americans in Ukraine.
 
Old 05-24-2022, 12:00 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,915 posts, read 24,596,386 times
Reputation: 9709
I don't think Russia is neoliberal as someone claimed. It might have been 20 years ago when traitors sold out their country.
 
Old 05-24-2022, 12:04 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,915 posts, read 24,596,386 times
Reputation: 9709
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Russians didn't invade anything back in 2014. ( If they would have, Donbass would have been Russian already long time ago.)


But Russians got involved in the proxy war started by Americans in Ukraine.

A few quotes from a Swiss general, who used to work for Nato in Ukraine:

Quote:
In October 2015, Vasyl Hrytsak, director of the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU), confessed that only 56 Russian fighters had been observed in the Donbass. This was exactly comparable to the Swiss who went to fight in Bosnia on weekends, in the 1990s, or the French who go to fight in Ukraine today.
Quote:
Let us remember that there were never any Russian troops in the Donbass before 23-24 February 2022. Moreover, OSCE observers have never observed the slightest trace of Russian units operating in the Donbass before then.
Quote:
In 2014, when I was at NATO, I was responsible for the fight against the proliferation of small arms, and we were trying to detect Russian arms deliveries to the rebels, to see if Moscow was involved. The information we received then came almost entirely from Polish intelligence services and did not "fit" with the information coming from the OSCE [Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe] — and despite rather crude allegations, there were no deliveries of weapons and military equipment from Russia.

The rebels were armed thanks to the defection of Russian-speaking Ukrainian units that went over to the rebel side. As Ukrainian failures continued, tank, artillery and anti-aircraft battalions swelled the ranks of the autonomists. This is what pushed the Ukrainians to commit to the Minsk Agreements.
https://www.sott.net/article/466340-...-on-in-Ukraine
 
Old 05-24-2022, 12:09 PM
 
26,721 posts, read 22,298,665 times
Reputation: 9994
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
I don't think Russia is neoliberal as someone claimed. It might have been 20 years ago when traitors sold out their country.

Oh but it is ( or rather was) for the last 20 years.

But that's what the Russians ( at least the ones that support the war effort) are demanding ( and hoping) to change NOW, as the result of this war.

They are looking forward for changes in the Russian society, and that's why some dignitaries and the neoliberal officials ( like this what's his name - Bondarev who resigned from UN couple of days ago,) are jumping the ship.
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