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The foolish and the naive. More name-calling. Cute.
But your last sentence is actually onto something.
It's not just to protect the Donbass Russians. It's to rid Ukraine of the Azovs, Svobodas, and Right Sectors of the world, who have usurped and corrupted Ukraine's politics and used Ukraine the country for their own gain at the expense of Ukrainian citizens who did nothing wrong and at the expense of Donbass Russians.
Why is this Putin's problem, in the normal scheme of things that is? Putin, of course, seeks economic integration with a neighbor and was hampered by terms set during the USSR breakup and agreements made with Western firms.
No one denies the extent of Ukrainian corruption. Frankly it's hard to discern whether it is Western firms manipulating Ukrainians or the other way around, and obviously a mixture of both at times. Ukrainian corruption is tied - in part - to Russian interests.
It is Putin's argument that money lost to Russia ends up captured by Ukrainian oligarchs and the average Ukrainian suffers. Here you narrow it to Donbass. What is he, an economic social worker for his neighboring country? Then invades the problem away.
A rumored proposed puppet replacement to Zelenskyy is a former associate of the very corrupt Russian puppet Viktor Yanukovych whose associates shared in the bounty and were known as "The Family."
Not aware of any serious allegations against Zelenskyy whom I doubt has the power to control the local oligarchs to the extent Putin can in Russia.
Pretty well sums up what led to the Russian invasion. Doesn't excuse Putin, but does seek to educate on how exactly the world got here, for example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Smith
It is not an expression of support for Putin’s grotesque actions to try to understand why it seemed worthwhile for him to risk hundreds of billions of dollars, the lives of thousands of servicemen, and the possible stability of his own regime in order to invade his neighbor. After all, Putin’s reputation until this moment has always been as a shrewd ex-KGB man who eschewed high-risk gambles in favor of sure things backed by the United States, like entering Syria and then escalating forces there. So why has he adopted exactly the opposite strategy here, and chosen the road of open high-risk confrontation with the American superpower?
None of the folks like me who seek to have a greater understanding of what is happening here are excusing Putin. His actions are, in fact, grotesque. No two ways about it, and I don't think anyone outside of his cabinet and trusted circle believes otherwise. But western media is indeed papering over all of the US, EU, NATO and Ukraine nonsense that led to this point, and as Tucker Carlson points out, are now trying to hold us all as moral hostages who are considered traitors if we ask "why?"
It is important to understand the "why" of this though, so when you see these seemingly innocent and innocuous actions by our "benevolent" dictatorship in DC, you understand that we are not innocent, we do not hold moral high ground because no such ground exists, and we provoke and antagonize constantly. Putin's actions are grotesque, but all of our actions during 28 years of provocation are equally grotesque.
Ruble still falling in value. Will the Russian stock market open tomorrow or will they keep it closed a third day in a row?
"After plunging roughly 30% apiece on Monday, the VanEck Russia ETF and iShares MSCI Russia ETF—the two largest U.S. exchange-traded funds exclusively holding Russia-based stocks—fell another 10% each once the market opened Tuesday."
Why is this Putin's problem, in the normal scheme of things that is? Putin, of course, seeks economic integration with a neighbor and was hampered by terms set during the USSR breakup and agreements made with Western firms.
No one denies the extent of Ukrainian corruption. Frankly it's hard to discern whether it is Western firms manipulating Ukrainians or the other way around, and obviously a mixture of both at times. Ukrainian corruption is tied - in part - to Russian interests.
It is Putin's argument that money lost to Russia ends up captured by Ukrainian oligarchs and the average Ukrainian suffers. Here you narrow it to Donbass. What is he, an economic social worker for his neighboring country? Then invades the problem away.
A rumored proposed puppet replacement to Zelenskyy is a former associate of the very corrupt Russian puppet Viktor Yanukovych whose associates shared in the bounty and were known as "The Family."
Not aware of any serious allegations against Zelenskyy whom I doubt has the power to control the local oligarchs to the extent Putin can in Russia.
Because those groups have among their ranks members who believe in a racial hierarchy that is not so different from the race-based views of a certain European country who had a strong leader with great power between 1933 and 1945.
If those groups' beliefs were just that - beliefs - which while troubling to certain nationalities but which resulted in no practical, day-to-day effect on the lives of those nationalities, then Putin may not have been as compelled to act. But once, post-Maidan, those groups took power (with 4 of 11 cabinet members from those groups), the racism became more than just beliefs, with threats against the use of the Russian language and Russian culture.
Those people in the Donbass aren't just Russians; they reside in an area which was historically part of Russia and which ended up as part of what is today Ukraine via a decision by Lenin shortly after the Soviets took power. This is very similar to what Khruschev did 9 years after World War II ended when he "gifted" Crimea from the Russian republic to the Ukraine republic within the USSR.
The corruption isn't just bribes or other such behavior. The rottenness perpetrated by those extremists has cost lives - in the thousands. Remember that when in 2010, Yanukovych beat Timoshenko, Timoshenko ultimately accepted the result and moved on. There was no Maidan-type color revolution in 2010, and no group came to power which then promulgated discriminatory edicts against minorities while deploying armed men to murder the children and senior citizens and women of those minority communities.
Last edited by Sprawling_Homeowner; 03-01-2022 at 11:23 AM..
The USA regularly targets news networks during their bombing campaigns (often justification is to cripple the government communications arm), those are a legitimate target in a war.
Yep, it's going to be a bloodbath, and the Ukrainians will lose in the immediate future.
But who will win the war of attrition? The Russian soldiers who don't want to be there in the first place, or if occupied for any long length of time, the Ukrainian housewife who tosses a molotov cocktail where she knows the Russians are sleeping, perhaps 2 years from now? Like Afghanistan and Vietnam, there is no "win" scenario here for the Russians, because they will never win the hearts and minds of the people, that ship long sailed with the death of the USSR.
The problem child may be Kyiv. Not only is it the capital, it's an integral part of the "Mother Russia" concept pushed by Putin.
Possible plans for a puppet state almost have to be disrupted by the Ukrainian backlash. What - are Russian troops to occupy the country for years to prevent Ukrainians from quickly removing the new "president."
The alternative? Essentially dividing the country, expanding the Russian zone to all parts desirable (the Black Sea coast line, the Dnieper River). Crowding Ukrainian refugees into so-called former Polish lands to the west?
The problem is, both "states" will want Kviv, with it largely populated by these now-westernized Ukrainians. Bosniaks and Serbs fought in a long-lasting siege for Sarajevo.
There are distinctly different details, that won't make this a duplicate. But the conceptual problem remains.
It's highly unlikely it's one Putin wanted to encounter. I suppose in the end he'll take some land (certainly Donbass) with much less control over most of Ukraine than desired ... settling for independent neutrality obtained in exchange for the release of some sanctions. With the lives of all Ukrainians seriously disrupted, including those of Russian-speaking Ukrainians.
And a black name for Russia, and much more - this time, well-demonstrated - fear of Putin with questions as to his stability. For a man who started this off with a history lesson (the Feb 21st speech) how could he so misjudge "his" <sarcasm> people, the Ukrainians? Or Zelenskyy, for that matter, was derided as a weak comic.
Putin didn't seem to "get" that violating a nation's sovereignty in a continent that's previously turned into a bloodbath over such questions would be chilling leading to that backlash.
H*story is a *****. The problem is that Putin was obsessed with HIS version.
The problem child may be Kyiv. Not only is it the capital, it's an integral part of the "Mother Russia" concept pushed by Putin.
Possible plans for a puppet state almost have to be disrupted by the Ukrainian backlash. What - are Russian troops to occupy the country for years to prevent Ukrainians from quickly removing the new "president."
The alternative? Essentially dividing the country, expanding the Russian zone to all parts desirable (the Black Sea coast line, the Dnieper River). Crowding Ukrainian refugees into so-called former Polish lands to the west?
The problem is, both "states" will want Kviv, with it largely populated by these now-westernized Ukrainians. Bosniaks and Serbs fought in a long-lasting siege for Sarajevo.
There are distinctly different details, that won't make this a duplicate. But the conceptual problem remains.
It's highly unlikely it's one Putin wanted to encounter. I suppose in the end he'll get much less control over most of Ukraine than desired ... settling for independent neutrality obtained in exchange for the release of some sanctions. With the lives of all Ukrainians seriously disrupted, including those of Russian-speaking Ukrainians.
And a black name for Russia, and much more - this time, well-demonstrated - fear of Putin with questions as to his stability. For a man who started this off with a history lesson (the Feb 21st speech) how could he so misjudge "his" <sarcasm> people, the Ukrainians? Or Zelenskyy, for that matter.
Sarajevo is a good example. The Bosnian Serbs did not have the manpower to take the city by force, so they sieged it from the surrounding hills for something like 2-3 years, aiming to completely break the moral of the fighters inside. It didn't work, Bosnian war was ended before that worked.
Russians do have the capacity to take Kiev, but at a terrible cost. If they want to minimize Russian life, they will simply carpet bomb the city to rubble however they will definitely get a backlash from some of the neutral countries currently - including China.
They could fight street to street, but at huge cost to them. If this was their plan, they'd have invaded with 2x as many troops.
So, I think they will siege it Sarajevo style, while they take other parts of the country and continue negotiations.
Constant, but light shelling and sniping. Keeps civilian tolls low so backlash does not arise, but constant air sirens at night , disruption of services, etc makes life miserable for average people. They seem to be doing a traditional horseshoe maneuver where they allow a small outlet for civilians to flee so over time, they can say with more certainty its only enemy combatants.
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