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If we won the war in Afghanistan then so did the Soviet Union.
When we invaded, many of the bases we used were built by the Soviets.
Like I said earlier, I am more interested in the military side of AFghanistan than the political. From that perspective, the Soviet Union also won. But both countries did the same thing after the military success in that both countries wanted to change Afghanistan into something else that is too alien. Democracy was as alien as Marxism to the Afghans. They are a tribalistic society. Not a good foundation for either ideology.
We have to care. We are the world's policeman. Am not saying that facetiously but seriously. Whether we wanted that role or not, the day NATO was created and we led, we became the world's policeman. So why should we ignore the character of any country?
NATO is financially profitable? More like the EU or WTO membership, or 'Most Favored Nation' trade status. Try again.
I do not speak for all Euros, but am willing to speculate as to their desires. The fact that they petitioned for NATO membership is significant. It means they did not care for who MIGHT be in charge of Russia. The odds of security with NATO is better than that there could be a benevolent leadership in the Kremlin, and right now, that hunch proved correct. Look at Poland. Does the name 'Warsaw Pact' mean anything to you? The capital of Poland was the name of an alliance of oppression. But the character of Poland changed after the collapse of the Soviet Union. If Poutine was a different man, he would not care if NATO was expanding. Russia was in deep sh!7 enough back in 1999. But Poutine was a product of the Soviet system. Corrupt, power hungry, amoral, and cruel. And you are defending him.
We are the world's policeman? ok So now We go invading countries and overthrowing governments because of character.
So you don't speak for all Europeans that want to prevent WW 3 after fighting WW 1 and WW 2 on their continent but you are only speculating? You know the meaning? [form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence.]
Now you change the topic and accuse me of "defending" Putin so I can jump in your speculation and start WW 3 because of character.
Let me ask you a question: If there was a 30 country nuclear military alliance against the U.S. and they keep moving closer and closer to our border and they supported the overthrow of Mexico to put their pro friendly government and give them lethal weapons that are placed on our border and pushes them to join the military alliance, We wouldn't care? The fact is that We would do the same thing and more because We have done. Hypocrisy is not a virtue.
Do you have any clue about our foreign policy for the past 30 years? it makes you live in a bubble but you say you are a veteran? ok
I am less interested in the political outcome of a war than I am interested in the military accomplishments of it. And militarily speaking, we did great.
If we had a different doctrine back then, that war would have a different outcome. If our doctrine was to simply remove the Taliban from power, then leave, then we would have declared that 'war' a success. Instead, we went on to try to change the character of a society that was essentially too backward for us, and we did try under the 'war' status. So of course, when we left, we 'lost' the 'war'. I just find it curious as to how any American would take that to mock his/her own country.
LOL. So you rather win battles and lose the war. So after 20 years in a lost war, you say We did "great" (not ok or good). Did you served personally in the war or you repeat the lies fed to us for 20 years to keep financing the war?
If you remove the Taliban and leave and they return then it's a failure. If We stay and they still return, is a failure. Why do you split hairs and try to find lame excuses for a lost war and 5.8 trillion dollars lost and 7,054 U.S. soldiers dead and over 50,000 dead civilians in Afghanistan and 207,000 Iraqi civilians deaths in direct conflict and a lot more in the aftermath.
Funny, you mock the Russian Army for not securing Ukraine under 2 weeks but can't take the truth that the U.S. with NATO failed to secure Afghanistan in 20 years.
I'm a real veteran. I respect the opponent because I know their powers and limits and war is not a game. When you call the Russian Army "losers" then you have No respect for an opponent and a war that can kill minimum 1 billion people.
So after 20 years in a lost war, you say We did "great" (not ok or good).
I said militarily we did great. And we did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJuanStar
Did you served personally in the war or you repeat the lies fed to us for 20 years to keep financing the war?
F-111 Cold War, then F-16 Desert Storm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJuanStar
If you remove the Taliban and leave and they return then it's a failure. If We stay and they still return, is a failure. Why do you split hairs and try to find lame excuses for a lost war and 5.8 trillion dollars lost and 7,054 U.S. soldiers dead and over 50,000 dead civilians in Afghanistan and 207,000 Iraqi civilians deaths in direct conflict and a lot more in the aftermath.
So you keep pointing out that we lost Afghanistan, what is the point? Do you get some joy out of citing statistics to prove that we lost Afghanistan?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJuanStar
Funny, you mock the Russian Army for not securing Ukraine under 2 weeks but can't take the truth that the U.S. with NATO failed to secure Afghanistan in 20 years.
Our failure in Afghanistan was in trying to change the character of a society. That is not splitting hairs. The reason the US succeeded in rebuilding Europe post WW II was because we did not have to change the characters of those countries due to the fact that most American came from Europe. The only thing that mattered was the political leadership.
So I do consider the military side of Afghanistan to be successful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJuanStar
I'm a real veteran. I respect the opponent because I know their powers and limits and war is not a game. When you call the Russian Army "losers" then you have No respect for an opponent and a war that can kill minimum 1 billion people.
You called US 'losers' and have great joy in it, so why are you complaining about me?
We are the world's policeman? ok So now We go invading countries and overthrowing governments because of character.
So you don't speak for all Europeans that want to prevent WW 3 after fighting WW 1 and WW 2 on their continent but you are only speculating? You know the meaning? [form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence.]
Now you change the topic and accuse me of "defending" Putin so I can jump in your speculation and start WW 3 because of character.
Let me ask you a question: If there was a 30 country nuclear military alliance against the U.S. and they keep moving closer and closer to our border and they supported the overthrow of Mexico to put their pro friendly government and give them lethal weapons that are placed on our border and pushes them to join the military alliance, We wouldn't care? The fact is that We would do the same thing and more because We have done. Hypocrisy is not a virtue.
Do you have any clue about our foreign policy for the past 30 years? it makes you live in a bubble but you say you are a veteran? ok
Disclosure: Am a refugee from communism, an emigre to the US, a naturalized citizen, and a veteran.
When I said refugee, I mean the full effect, as in fleeing for your life not knowing where you might end up kind of refugee. So yes, the character of a country matters to me. Would I fled to the US or Canada? Either country would be fine. But I would not have run to communist China or Cuba, right?
So I will ask you these: Where would you rather live? If the US is so terrible, what are the alternatives? Are they any more pure than US? Why are you not there?
Your question is absurd on its face. Of course we would respond in ways to try to deter or even defeat that encroaching alliance. But that is not the point. National character is the point. What is so redeeming about the Warsaw Pact then and Russia now that you would think your question have any validity? Just because we would respond in similar or even the same make US morally equal to Russia? Give me a break.
Disclosure: Am a refugee from communism, an emigre to the US, a naturalized citizen, and a veteran.
When I said refugee, I mean the full effect, as in fleeing for your life not knowing where you might end up kind of refugee. So yes, the character of a country matters to me. Would I fled to the US or Canada? Either country would be fine. But I would not have run to communist China or Cuba, right?
So I will ask you these: Where would you rather live? If the US is so terrible, what are the alternatives? Are they any more pure than US? Why are you not there?
Your question is absurd on its face. Of course we would respond in ways to try to deter or even defeat that encroaching alliance. But that is not the point. National character is the point. What is so redeeming about the Warsaw Pact then and Russia now that you would think your question have any validity? Just because we would respond in similar or even the same make US morally equal to Russia? Give me a break.
I think you are confusing living in a country with the great people in it to having blind faith to the powerful, the government. I understand that where you from is the same thing but not here. We always question our government and challenge them since the 13 colonies. The problem is not what Russia is doing but our government does under our tax dollars.
You really have me laughing with your moral arguments. Who said that countries have to me on the same level morally and War is the solution? lol
Like I said earlier, I am more interested in the military side of AFghanistan than the political. From that perspective, the Soviet Union also won. But both countries did the same thing after the military success in that both countries wanted to change Afghanistan into something else that is too alien. Democracy was as alien as Marxism to the Afghans. They are a tribalistic society. Not a good foundation for either ideology.
US strategy has and always been “push democracy” when the government is oppressive and not aligned with the Western axis but it supports dictatorships when they back US interests.
A case in point is Saudi Arabia and Yemen. Saudi Arabia and UAE are committing many atrocities in Yemen, UAE even annexed Socotra, but we never hear in the media how Saudi’s are the evil guys and Houthis are the good guys.
Of course smart people know there are no “good” and “evil” guys, just aggressors and defenders. In the case of the Houthis they’re defenders though you can find many things wrong with their movement. Likewise with Ukraine.
With Afghanistan our goal was always to build a NATO base there, as Afghanistan borders both China and is very near Russia but adjacent to many Russian aligned states like Tajikistan and Uzbekistan.
The true liberators of Kabul were Tajiks and Uzbeks (Northern Alliance) but we couldn’t have them run the show for fear Afghanistan would be aligned with these two satellites of Russia so we installed Pashtuns who would not only be a torn in the side of Uzbeks and Tajiks but also Iranians.
Well this regime was so corrupt that when we pulled out, they pulled out with all the cash, leaving regular Afghanis defenseless and at the mercy of the Taliban.
There was no democracy ever in Afghanistan, and we (the USA) weren’t trying that. We’re opening a country to be exploited by our military and corporate interests, in the mean time trying to surround our enemies of China and Russia.
As we left Afghanistan, the Biden administration bombed a man and his family loading water in their car. The Biden administration claimed with a straight face they were terrorists, then that there were terrorists in the area, then shut up about it entirely when evidence was indisputable there were no terrorists at all.
Taliban used to be one of the most anti-Russian groups in the world. The current Taliban regime however decided to be neutral in this conflict, more out of their hatred for the US.
I think you are confusing living in a country with the great people in it to having blind faith to the powerful, the government. I understand that where you from is the same thing but not here. We always question our government and challenge them since the 13 colonies. The problem is not what Russia is doing but our government does under our tax dollars.
You really have me laughing with your moral arguments. Who said that countries have to me on the same level morally and War is the solution? lol
The one who is truly amused here is me because I still do not see what is the point you are trying to prove. So you have a jaundiced view of the government. What is so unique about that?
Russia invade Ukraine. People objects. And you objects to their objections by using a hypothetical situation where the US and Russia swaps places. How does this make what Russia does any less atrocious? Is Russia a greater place than US to live? Is Russia's political leadership what you want for yourself?
Well you said: "We did GREAT" but lost the war. Countries don't go to war to lose. Is not "Great"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roderic
I said militarily we did great. And we did.
Not if the Taliban return to power and our military couldn't prevent it after 20 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roderic
So you keep pointing out that we lost Afghanistan, what is the point? Do you get some joy out of citing statistics to prove that we lost Afghanistan?
You are the one that call the Russian Army "losers" for not securing Ukraine who are getting supplies by the U.S. and NATO under 2 weeks but take personal anybody that brings you back to reality that wars doesn't end in 2 weeks. It has phases and to remind you that the U.S. and NATO lost the Afghanistan war. That means anybody could lose a war. So you being cocky that We can go to Russia and beat them easily is a joke and people who served should know better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roderic
Our failure in Afghanistan was in trying to change the character of a society. That is not splitting hairs. The reason the US succeeded in rebuilding Europe post WW II was because we did not have to change the characters of those countries due to the fact that most American came from Europe. The only thing that mattered was the political leadership.
So that works in Japan and Southeast Asia and the Middle East? They have the same characters as Americans? lol....ok.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roderic
You called US 'losers' and have great joy in it, so why are you complaining about me?
No, learn to read. You called the Russian Army "losers" for not securing Ukraine (who is getting lots of help from the West) under 2 weeks while the U.S. actual lost a war after 20 years in Afghanistan with NATO.....I'm just exposing your argument and double standards.
The one who is truly amused here is me because I still do not see what is the point you are trying to prove. So you have a jaundiced view of the government. What is so unique about that?
Russia invade Ukraine. People objects. And you objects to their objections by using a hypothetical situation where the US and Russia swaps places. How does this make what Russia does any less atrocious? Is Russia a greater place than US to live? Is Russia's political leadership what you want for yourself?
No one is more disgusted by the Russian invasion of Ukraine than me.
But what is annoying is a bunch of people with no background in geopolitics and history coming out of the woodwork talking about good vs evil like the world is some Disney movie.
If we go by innocents killed in the last 30 years - USA is far above Russia.
I’m also not convinced we’re a democracy anymore. Certainly Russia is not and I’d never want to live there. Neither the climate, or the type of politics appeal to me.
But the USA is not a “free” country anymore. Besides some property and my kids, of which I maintain US citizenship for so I can easily travel, I’d leave. To an island somewhere. French Polynesia. Before the COVID debacle I was thinking New Zealand. Now, no longer.
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So now We go invading countries and overthrowing governments because of character. 