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I am not suggesting a shooting war. All I am saying is deploying troops- not attacking.
The simple presence of large troop concentrations would prompt movement of Russian forces to "counter" those troop buildups.
Right now, two non-NATO countries are having a tiff. NATO has as much business with Ukraine and Russia as it does with China and Taiwan, Israel and the PA, or India and Pakistan.
Putin has not moved troops/armor/tech to anywhere else in a threat to NATO, so why does NATO need to move troops/armor/tech to counter his non-threat to them?
If you say "well because Ukraine puts him on NATO's doorstep and well REASONS!!" then you are making his case for Ukraine with the exact same logic. If you say "well, if he is willing to invade Ukraine, what stops him from taking XYZ next?" then that also makes the same point he is making about NATO expansion with the exact same logic.
Everything the media is feeding you about Putin the Aggressor relies on the exact same logic Putin uses when considering NATO an aggressor against him. Literally the exact same, even down to the wording. Except in Putin's case, he has way more evidence proving his argument than we have proving ours.
Right now, two non-NATO countries are having a tiff. NATO has as much business with Ukraine and Russia as it does with China and Taiwan, Israel and the PA, or India and Pakistan.
Putin has not moved troops/armor/tech to anywhere else in a threat to NATO, so why does NATO need to move troops/armor/tech to counter his non-threat to them?
If you say "well because Ukraine puts him on NATO's doorstep and well REASONS!!" then you are making his case for Ukraine with the exact same logic. If you say "well, if he is willing to invade Ukraine, what stops him from taking XYZ next?" then that also makes the same point he is making about NATO expansion with the exact same logic.
Everything the media is feeding you about Putin the Aggressor relies on the exact same logic Putin uses when considering NATO an aggressor against him. Literally the exact same, even down to the wording. Except in Putin's case, he has way more evidence proving his argument than we have proving ours.
Am I the only one who can see this?
Some of us see it. Many don't want want to use logic because the propaganda campaign is in full force.
Obviously, NATO is going to do NOTHING from a military standpoint against Russia- that is clear.
What they CAN DO is to mass NATO troops in Poland and the Baltic States on the Border of Belarus to make it appear as though NATO will move on them. That simple buildup of forces will force Putin to deploy troops to Belarus and valuable equipment, diverting it from Ukraine.
The simple movement of "chess pieces", even without a shot being fired, requires counter moves which diverts assets away from the current combat zone.
NATO, while not admitting Ukraine, COULD HAVE staged joint military exercises and kept NATO troops in Ukraine, making the invasion and occupation impossible without Russia declaring war on NATO. The simple presence of a single NATO division would have had the deterrent to invasion through the implication of attacking the force, no matter how small. That opportunity, of course, was lost due to inaction on the part of the Biden admin (again), as they cannot think their way out of a paper bag.
More opportunities lost due to an idiot in the White House and one who is no longer trusted by NATO nations due to their abandonment in Afghanistan. That disaster has had consequences for the alliance that will be felt far into the future. This is why one cannot have demented morons in the Oval Office.
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Location: Great Britain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeye2009
I am aware of that.
However, they need to put more troops on the Belarus border with the appearance of an invasion force, which would force Putin to deploy troops to Belarus and away from the Ukranian theater.
Poland, Lithuania and Latvia all border Belarus.
Significant US Forces are in Poland where they head a NATO multinational, the Canadian head a NATO multinational force in Latvia and the Germans alongside the French head the NATO multinational force in Lithuania.
As for Britain it is further up in Estonia, where it heads a NATO Multinational Force.
This is part of NATO's Enhanced Forward Presence, and has been recently reinforced.
Obviously, NATO is going to do NOTHING from a military standpoint against Russia- that is clear.
.
Unless Putin steps up mass bombing and indiscriminate killing of civilians. Then there will be great pressure on NATO to enforce a no-fly zone over Ukraine.
Unless Putin steps up mass bombing and indiscriminate killing of civilians. Then there will be great pressure on NATO to enforce a no-fly zone over Ukraine.
Yep.
And that's where this whole thing gets interesting, since Ukraine's importance to NATO is as money launderer and logistics chain, as well as military staging area. Ukraine is a poor country whose chief economic product is corruption. But that particular product makes a lot of oligarchs very wealthy. If NATO forces Putin's destructive hand, or he theirs, lots of money gets lost. The person who cares least in that particular arrangement, wins. Right now, oddly, that person is Putin.
The US led coup in 2014 already hit Russia's wallet, as did the US backed no-go on the Nord Stream 2 pipeline. Given the economic pain the US-EU have put on Putin already, and the world already being in on how corrupt Russia's oligarchy is and not really caring much, Putin has much less to lose with Ukraine's destruction than the US-EU corruptocrats do. He cares least. There is power there, and that's something I think was already factored in to his decision to invade.
The US is ferocious about defending their money laundering racket in Kyiv. They led a successful coup in Kyiv in 2014 and failed one in DC in 2016-2019 to protect that racket. They basically will stop at nothing to keep that flow of sleazy money flowing from Kyiv to DC bank accounts. They care most. There is weakness there, and that again is something I think Putin had already factored into his decisions.
Why Should NATO do anything. Ukraine is not a Nato country. Risking any mistake and possible escalation is idiotic. I believe in sending weapons to Ukraine and help fund them. If the Ukrainian people's will is strong enough they will win in the end. Even if it takes doing it by insurgency means. This who think not just need to look at history of both the U.S. and Russia itself who lost wars to insurgents.
Will the Russians complain, of course they will but they have done the same, supplied money and wpsn to our enemies and we have done the same in the past as well versus them. Its common behavior to do so and for the other side to complain about it but its expected and understand and unlikely to lead to escalation.
And as i've said before if anybody wants to do more not all that difficult to head to Ukraine volunteer grab and rifle and fight. Put your own butt on the line but dont ask anybody else to.
Unless Putin steps up mass bombing and indiscriminate killing of civilians. Then there will be great pressure on NATO to enforce a no-fly zone over Ukraine.
Doubtful, as such an action against a major power would be a declaration of war.
It is a little different declaring a "no fly zone" over a non-nuclear power with an airforce that is vastly inferior.
Well, when democrats do nothing good and everything bad, yes- I agree- democrats bad.
Let's look at the laundry list of "democrat bad", since you mentioned it. Nothing "good" has come of the "Biden admin".
open borders
rampant crime
revolving door "justice" from dem DAs
stock market crumbling
interest rates rising
record inflation
record trade deficits
dollar value falling
product shortages
gasoline and energy prices rising
Biden war on oil, refusing to increase US production
Disaster in afghanistan- Taliban back in power
US citizens abandoned in afghanistan and Ukraine
Obama and Hillary committing treason against a sitting president discovered
Biden FBI using the FBI to intimidate parents objecting to CRT
CRT
racial division politics
ANTIFA and BLM support
jammed up ports
worker shortages everywhere
initiatives to federalize voting, violating the Constitution
initiatives to stack the Supreme Court
tranny rights over regular citizens
military saying gender, climate and white supremacy major concerns, not defense
BS "climate change" plans, diverting funds from real environmental issues
Hunter Biden taking bribes from China, Ukraine, and bogus art
Pelosi making millions off insider trading
Joe (the big guy) getting rich off bribes from Ukraine and China
Biggest war in Europe since WW2
Biden and Giggle blowing he diplomacy in Russia/Ukraine
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