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View Poll Results: Do you support giving Ukraine F-16s
Yes 187 40.04%
No 235 50.32%
Unsure 45 9.64%
Voters: 467. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-24-2022, 11:24 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,956 posts, read 24,675,783 times
Reputation: 9728

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyaleWithCheese View Post
Isnt the Donbas a part of Ukraine?
Hard to say, in fact impossible to say ever since The Hague decided years ago that a country declaring independence without the permission of the country does not violate international law.
What is OK for the Kosovo is OK for the Donbass as well.
That court basically created a legal contradiction between territorial integrity and right to secession. A problem for the whole world now...

But, even if Donbass had still been part of Ukraine, that does not allow a country to kill its own people, which however is exactly what Ukraine has been preparing for for years. Their enormous trench systems right next to the Donbass were not built on a weekend, they took years to build. Not to mention the mere fact that the bulk of the Ukrainian army had already been concentrated there for many months. They did not move there because of the invasion.
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Old 06-24-2022, 11:33 AM
 
2,612 posts, read 919,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Hard to say, in fact impossible to say ever since The Hague decided years ago that a country declaring independence without the permission of the country does not violate international law.
What is OK for the Kosovo is OK for the Donbass as well.
That court basically created a legal contradiction between territorial integrity and right to secession. A problem for the whole world now...

But, even if Donbass had still been part of Ukraine, that does not allow a country to kill its own people, which however is exactly what Ukraine has been preparing for for years. Their enormous trench systems right next to the Donbass were not built on a weekend, they took years to build. Not to mention the mere fact that the bulk of the Ukrainian army had already been concentrated there for many months. They did not move there because of the invasion.
Okay but they arent a part of Russia, right?
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Old 06-24-2022, 11:35 AM
 
51,619 posts, read 25,681,640 times
Reputation: 37806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Major View Post
A course I grew up in the U.S. Experienced bullies as well and you know what, I handled them on my own. Anyway you are missing the point. I understand Poland, Ukraine, and the Baltic states are much smaller and less capable than Russia. I don't however agree with starting a nuclear holocaust to protect them. The Ukraine will have to fight Russia 1 on 1.
Handled bullies on your own?

Aren't you the one who posted to give in to bullies? In any case, if you were at recess in a U.S. school, hopefully there was some adult supervision, however minimal, to keep the bullies from maiming the rest of the kids. You had help, even if it wasn't enough to protect you.

The idea that the rest of the world should stand back while Russia chews through smaller, less capable nations such as Ukraine, Poland, and the Baltic states is stomach turning.

Putin is going to launch those missiles whenever he damn well pleases.

BTW, when I was growing up, the best defense against bullies was having a bunch friends that had your back.
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Old 06-24-2022, 11:43 AM
 
2,612 posts, read 919,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post

The idea that the rest of the world should stand back while Russia chews through smaller, less capable nations such as Ukraine, Poland, and the Baltic states is stomach turning.
It is a misconception that the US is helping Ukraine. The US is the biggest bully on earth, they do not help. The US is getting involved to multiply the number of deaths and to multiply the destruction. This is not an accident, the US knows what it is doing and there is nothing about it that is intended to help Ukraine.

To use your analogy, its as if that adult in the playground is putting together a fight club among the kids and setting up gambling on fights, giving one side an advantage to keep the fights going longer, selling weapons and other enhancements to combatants, etc.
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Old 06-24-2022, 12:07 PM
 
1,651 posts, read 848,606 times
Reputation: 2572
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
Handled bullies on your own?

Aren't you the one who posted to give in to bullies? In any case, if you were at recess in a U.S. school, hopefully there was some adult supervision, however minimal, to keep the bullies from maiming the rest of the kids. You had help, even if it wasn't enough to protect you.

The idea that the rest of the world should stand back while Russia chews through smaller, less capable nations such as Ukraine, Poland, and the Baltic states is stomach turning.

Putin is going to launch those missiles whenever he damn well pleases.

BTW, when I was growing up, the best defense against bullies was having a bunch friends that had your back.
Give in to bullies. Never said such a thing. I do not see global conflicts as good vs evil right vs wrong and merely interest vs interest. This freed me from falling into the weaponized mortality trap that many Americans fall victim to.

FYI, I handled bullies on my own. Sure, teachers were there to break it up, but only after the fact. Thankfully I had older male figures who showed me how to defend myself early on. Took some losses, but also had wins. I do agree about having a bunch of friends is great, but that carries the risk of gang violence.

Once again, I understand their fears, but where do we draw the line. Russia is a country that can inflict great damage upon the world. We may not like to admit it, but such military prowess must be respected. There have been examples of nations repelling invaders with no foreign power fighting help (excluding weapons). I mean look at Afghanistan. Ukraine can do it as well if they have will. No need for the U.S. to become more involved.
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Old 06-24-2022, 12:20 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,956 posts, read 24,675,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyaleWithCheese View Post
Okay but they arent a part of Russia, right?
No. So?
There is an international law that allows a country to request protection by another country if it is under attack. The Donbass republics asked Russia for protection against Ukrainian attacks.
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Old 06-24-2022, 12:23 PM
 
51,619 posts, read 25,681,640 times
Reputation: 37806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Major View Post
Give in to bullies. Never said such a thing. I do not see global conflicts as good vs evil right vs wrong and merely interest vs interest. This freed me from falling into the weaponized mortality trap that many Americans fall victim to.

FYI, I handled bullies on my own. Sure, teachers were there to break it up, but only after the fact. Thankfully I had older male figures who showed me how to defend myself early on. Took some losses, but also had wins. I do agree about having a bunch of friends is great, but that carries the risk of gang violence.

Once again, I understand their fears, but where do we draw the line. Russia is a country that can inflict great damage upon the world. We may not like to admit it, but such military prowess must be respected. There have been examples of nations repelling invaders with no foreign power fighting help (excluding weapons). I mean look at Afghanistan. Ukraine can do it as well if they have will. No need for the U.S. to become more involved.
Ukraine could probably do it in 20 years like Afghanistan.

However, it seems that the United States like many other nations have decided this is a time to call the haul to Russians territorial ambitions. We’ll see how it works out
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Old 06-24-2022, 12:25 PM
bu2
 
23,974 posts, read 14,760,934 times
Reputation: 12784
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBoy64 View Post
Whatever I toss out you will call fake news. But here is an interesting read of Ukrainian's interaction with the Russian military in Bucha. Which this naked aggression against Ukraine is just one in a long chapter of reasons Russian leadership is considered evil.

https://detector.media/in-english/ar...tary-in-bucha/
Really good article.

Good read not just about Ukraine, but about how people can be changed.
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Old 06-24-2022, 12:26 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,956 posts, read 24,675,783 times
Reputation: 9728
This Zelensky video was from a time before he was bought by the US and threatened by the Nazis:
(As always with Telegram videos, click Cancel if you are asked to open the app and don't have it.)

https://t.me/Ubersicht_Ukraine_Kanal/10857

What a giant u-turn he made... It's as if they had replaced his brain with that of another person...
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Old 06-24-2022, 01:15 PM
 
2,612 posts, read 919,420 times
Reputation: 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
No. So?
There is an international law that allows a country to request protection by another country if it is under attack. The Donbass republics asked Russia for protection against Ukrainian attacks.
Is that why Russia tried to invade the entire country instead of only focusing in the east?

It was an internal matter with limited death and destruction. Russia had no right to invade which created a much more massive amount of death and destruction. They would have had a better case if they only invaded those separatist regions. But still not the best case as they are now destroying those regions.

But this is all a big fakery also as Russia isnt going around helping people who want independence like they care. It is a shame we have to pretend that that is what they may be,
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