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View Poll Results: Do you support giving Ukraine F-16s
Yes 190 39.58%
No 244 50.83%
Unsure 46 9.58%
Voters: 480. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-05-2022, 10:55 AM
bu2
 
24,101 posts, read 14,879,963 times
Reputation: 12933

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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62011689

Story of a Ukrainian survivor of Russian murders in Bucha.

"...Taxi driver and father of four, Ivan Skyba, found himself defending a suburban street at the start of the war. He narrowly avoided death at the hands of the Russians. All the other Ukrainian men with him were not so lucky. Prosecutors are treating what happened in the small city of Bucha as a war crime. Fergal Keane has been to meet Ivan, the sole survivor.

There is the urge to breathe out. Just one big exhalation to relieve the pressure. But Ivan knows it will be the death of him if he does. The temperature is just above freezing. Warm breath rising into cold air will create a small fog and alert the killers. They are already checking the bodies of the men they have just shot, making sure, firing a final bullet where they see any sign of life. He hears one of the Russians say: "That one is still alive!"

Ivan wonders if they are talking about him? Maybe it is one of the others. Still, he prepares himself for the bullet. He is already bleeding from a wound in his side. The other Russian says: "He will die by himself!"

But then there is a shot. It strikes somebody else. A man fights different urges in such moments. The bullet wound in his side is agonisingly painful. But crying out would be fatal. All of this will come back later in dreams. But for now, he will lie among the dead. He will be as still as his murdered comrades...."
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Old 07-05-2022, 10:55 AM
 
3,220 posts, read 1,604,851 times
Reputation: 2888
What makes Ukraine important is, there is no Russian Empire without Ukraine.
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Old 07-05-2022, 11:05 AM
 
26,787 posts, read 22,545,020 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_N View Post
What makes Ukraine important is, there is no Russian Empire without Ukraine.

Is it what Brzezinski told you?
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Old 07-05-2022, 11:31 AM
 
4,968 posts, read 2,711,215 times
Reputation: 6948
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
You aren't paying attention to what is going on in the south. They are digging in in fallback lines as they are losing ground, at about the same speed they are gaining ground in the east, pretty slowly.
That's not what I am seeing. The Russians are making steady gains. Slow but steady.

From the BBC an article with a July 4 update:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60506682

Or is the BBC a Russian propaganda outlet?
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Old 07-05-2022, 11:31 AM
 
51,652 posts, read 25,813,568 times
Reputation: 37889
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_N View Post
What makes Ukraine important is, there is no Russian Empire without Ukraine.
Why is that?
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Old 07-05-2022, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee, WI
3,368 posts, read 2,890,666 times
Reputation: 2972
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62011689

Story of a Ukrainian survivor of Russian murders in Bucha.

"...Taxi driver and father of four, Ivan Skyba, found himself defending a suburban street at the start of the war. He narrowly avoided death at the hands of the Russians. All the other Ukrainian men with him were not so lucky. Prosecutors are treating what happened in the small city of Bucha as a war crime. Fergal Keane has been to meet Ivan, the sole survivor.

There is the urge to breathe out. Just one big exhalation to relieve the pressure. But Ivan knows it will be the death of him if he does. The temperature is just above freezing. Warm breath rising into cold air will create a small fog and alert the killers. They are already checking the bodies of the men they have just shot, making sure, firing a final bullet where they see any sign of life. He hears one of the Russians say: "That one is still alive!"

Ivan wonders if they are talking about him? Maybe it is one of the others. Still, he prepares himself for the bullet. He is already bleeding from a wound in his side. The other Russian says: "He will die by himself!"

But then there is a shot. It strikes somebody else. A man fights different urges in such moments. The bullet wound in his side is agonisingly painful. But crying out would be fatal. All of this will come back later in dreams. But for now, he will lie among the dead. He will be as still as his murdered comrades...."
What a nice piece of a war fiction...
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Old 07-05-2022, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Elysium
12,386 posts, read 8,149,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
So what makes Ukraine more important than any other country in the world with regards to world freedom ?

They certainly aren't a democracy and never were.
They were invaded by Russians
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Old 07-05-2022, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
7,826 posts, read 2,727,776 times
Reputation: 3387
Quote:
Originally Posted by BusinessManIT View Post
That's not what I am seeing. The Russians are making steady gains. Slow but steady.

From the BBC an article with a July 4 update:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60506682

Or is the BBC a Russian propaganda outlet?
Here is the Assessment from ISW last night I posted

https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...essment-july-4

Quote:
Former Russian military commander Igor Girkin, an ardent Russian nationalist who commanded militants during the 2014 war in Donbas, posted a scathing critique of the Kremlin’s handling of the war on his Telegram channel and questioned the significance of the seizure of Lysychansk. He suggested that Russian forces had paid too high a price for a limited gain

In a series of Telegram posts published prior to Putin’s meeting with Shoigu on July 4, Girkin complained that Russian forces have failed to meet the announced goals of the “second stage of the special operation” (the operations in eastern Ukraine following Russia’s retreat from Kyiv) to his nearly 400,000 subscribers.Girkin noted that the Ukrainian defense of Lysychansk was deliberately designed to inflict maximum damage on Russian troops and burn through Russian manpower and equipment. He strongly suggested that accepting battle on the Ukrainians‘ terms was a significant misstep by the Russian leadership.[4] Girkin stated (before Putin’s remarks were made public) that Russian troops need time to rest and replenish in order to recover their offensive potential and noted that the lack of individual soldier replacements and unit rotations is severely degrading morale. He warned, however, that taking time to reconstitute offensive capability would allow Ukrainian troops to seize the initiative and further threaten Russian gains.[5] Girkin additionally claimed that Russian forces have limited prospects of advancing elsewhere in Ukraine due to Ukrainian personnel and equipment superiority.

Girkin’s critique is a noteworthy example of the way Russian milbloggers and military enthusiasts have become disillusioned with the Kremlin’s handling and execution of operations in Ukraine, particularly after the dramatic failed river crossing attempt at Bilohorivka in early May.[7] Girkin’s statements directly undermine the Kremlin’s efforts to frame Lysychansk as a significant victory or turning point and show that the disillusionment amongst ultra-nationalist elements in the Russian information space continues to run deep. Girkin’s assessment of Russian military failures notably aligns with much of ISW’s (and other Western agencies’ and experts’) analysis, suggesting that he and some other milbloggers continue to make and publish assessments of the situation and forecasts independent of the Kremlin line. Girkin likely hopes to use his status as a prominent former participant in the war in Donbas in 2014 to persuade Putin to take certain measures to secure Russian success in a war that Girkin still thinks is justified and necessary—specifically mobilizing the Russian population for war on a much larger scale.[8] Girkin, along with other members of the Russian nationalist milblogger space, will likely continue to offer critiques of the Kremlin’s line on operations in Ukraine to advocate for general mobilization and more competent Russian military leadership.
Does Girkin spout Ukrainian propaganda??
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Old 07-05-2022, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
5,699 posts, read 4,928,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_N View Post
What makes Ukraine important is, there is no Russian Empire without Ukraine.
That’s not really true though. Russia formally became an Empire under the rule of Peter the great (1682-1725) and at the time most of Ukraine was still under Polish/Lithuanian control. Russia only controlled areas east of the Dnieper river.



If anything what allowed Russia to become an empire was the lucrative fur trade from Siberia (which now in modern times is the lucrative oil and gas trade from Siberia) it is Siberia, not Ukraine that gave Russia the finances to go toe to toe against the great European powers, after all Russia was only able to annex Ukraine and Belarus from the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth which was a great power at the time only after Russia conquered Siberia.

Last edited by grega94; 07-05-2022 at 02:50 PM..
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Old 07-05-2022, 01:56 PM
 
26,787 posts, read 22,545,020 times
Reputation: 10038
Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
That’s not really true though. Russia formally became an Empire under the rule of Peter the great (1682-1725) and at the time most of Ukraine was still under Polish/Lithuanian control. Russia only controlled areas east of the Dnieper river.



If anything what allowed Russia to become an empire was the lucrative fur trade from Siberia (which now in modern times is the lucrative oil and gas trade from Siberia) it is Siberia, not Ukraine that gave Russia the finances to go toe to toe against the great European powers, after Russia was only able annex Ukraine and Belarus from the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth which was a great power at the time only after Russia conquered Siberia.

Not "annex."
To take back.
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