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Do you have ANY idea, what you talking about? Like, ANY? You ever looked at history of Polish-Ukrainian relationship? When endemic population, since circa 15th century, was turned into bydlo, "cattle"? When there was not a century without local and Cossacks, uprising against Polish atrocities? When there was more blood on Polish hands, than Russia will EVER manage to get? For 500 years Ukraine was nothing but a stomped Polish colony, hated religiously, with artificial religion created just for Ukrainians, to turn them into Catholicism. And, here you - noble Poles becoming best friends to Ukrainians. Aight! Do you have any idea, how many Polaks UPA/OUN killed in the 20th century? You think, this was forgotten?
Even if this does not work, let me tell you, what my grandfather told me. He was the only Ukrainian, working at then Roemer plant in Lviv, in 1930s. German owned. He was at factory meeting and, suddenly, entire crew exploaded "Zabic' Ukrain'cow!", Kill Ukrainians. He sadi - I am sitting there, trying to become as little, as I possibly could, waiting to get a blow on the back of my head.
No? Still not enough? Well, let me tell you, what my grandmother told me. After they were repressed in 1947, lost all possessions and civil rights, sent to Siberia to almost certain death.
She said - Always remeber. I lived among Russians, Kazakhs, Chinese, Mongols and what not. But there is not a worse enemy to a Ukrainian, than Polak.
Sheesh...
Do you have ANY idea, what you talking about? Like, ANY? You ever looked at history of Polish-Ukrainian relationship? When endemic population, since circa 15th century, was turned into bydlo, "cattle"? When there was not a century without local and Cossacks, uprising against Polish atrocities? When there was more blood on Polish hands, than Russia will EVER manage to get? For 500 years Ukraine was nothing but a stomped Polish colony, hated religiously, with artificial religion created just for Ukrainians, to turn them into Catholicism. And, here you - noble Poles becoming best friends to Ukrainians. Aight! Do you have any idea, how many Polaks UPA/OUN killed in the 20th century? You think, this was forgotten?
Even if this does not work, let me tell you, what my grandfather told me. He was the only Ukrainian, working at then Roemer plant in Lviv, in 1930s. German owned. He was at factory meeting and, suddenly, entire crew exploaded "Zabic' Ukrain'cow!", Kill Ukrainians. He sadi - I am sitting there, trying to become as little, as I possibly could, waiting to get a blow on the back of my head.
No? Still not enough? Well, let me tell you, what my grandmother told me. After they were repressed in 1947, lost all possessions and civil rights, sent to Siberia to almost certain death.
She said - Always remeber. I lived among Russians, Kazakhs, Chinese, Mongols and what not. But there is not a worse enemy to a Ukrainian, than Polak.
Sheesh...
You are living in the past.
Poland is helping Ukraine at this time, during this crises.
The cruel actions of nobility and monarchy from wherever they came in past generations have nothing to do with these two democracies today. They face a common threat to their freedom and security today, and they do what they can do for each other.
Do you have ANY idea, what you talking about? Like, ANY? You ever looked at history of Polish-Ukrainian relationship? When endemic population, since circa 15th century, was turned into bydlo, "cattle"? When there was not a century without local and Cossacks, uprising against Polish atrocities? When there was more blood on Polish hands, than Russia will EVER manage to get? For 500 years Ukraine was nothing but a stomped Polish colony, hated religiously, with artificial religion created just for Ukrainians, to turn them into Catholicism. And, here you - noble Poles becoming best friends to Ukrainians. Aight! Do you have any idea, how many Polaks UPA/OUN killed in the 20th century? You think, this was forgotten?
Even if this does not work, let me tell you, what my grandfather told me. He was the only Ukrainian, working at then Roemer plant in Lviv, in 1930s. German owned. He was at factory meeting and, suddenly, entire crew exploaded "Zabic' Ukrain'cow!", Kill Ukrainians. He sadi - I am sitting there, trying to become as little, as I possibly could, waiting to get a blow on the back of my head.
No? Still not enough? Well, let me tell you, what my grandmother told me. After they were repressed in 1947, lost all possessions and civil rights, sent to Siberia to almost certain death.
She said - Always remeber. I lived among Russians, Kazakhs, Chinese, Mongols and what not. But there is not a worse enemy to a Ukrainian, than Polak.
Sheesh...
This new episode of human warfare shows the Poles moving beyond ww2. Individual Poles turn to humanitarian outreach. Of course some of its actions are expediency: Ukraine is not a threat to Polish democracy instead it is Russia who plays that role meaning why should Poland turn foolish to not grasp it? In contrast, this thread is besieged with posts how Russia really 'owns' Ukraine ... that Ukrainians do not exist as a ethnic group ... an ignorance of past Russian atrocities in Ukraine ... this living in and attempting to reconstruct the past.
The hundreds of years Ukraine spent under the Polish-Grand Duchy of Lithuanian also influenced Ukraine to the positive, for Ukraine was largely autonomous during those years populated in part by peasants who did not want to be Polish "cattle" who fled to Ukraine to be protected by Cossacks. Ukraine did not experience Tsar-Soviet-Russian style autocracy until the era of Catherine the Great, and never took to it.
Memories can be long-lived. With Russia the aggressor, the Ukrainian memories for past Russian atrocities become predominant. Still, cultural concepts how societies should be organized can be more long-lasting than episodic historical clashes.
Ukraine appeared to have inherited its 'taste for independence' based on hundreds of years of loose governance under the Poles. It is more 'western' not because of the United States or any present intervention but due to its history over that period - a western-oriented inheritance influenced by Polish thought. Its' 'nationalism' is not a Nazi inheritance but instead a demonstration Ukraine remained continually influenced by European movements, in this case the rise of nationalism in the 19th century.
For example, ask yourself why the United States fared better as a democracy when Argentina did not descending into dictatorships, with one an economic powerhouse the other not? Both shared a somewhat similar 'heritage,' populated by European immigrants; similar weather etc. A key difference: One was populated by people who inherited the English tradition of the rights of the individual, the second 'learning' more autocratic European monarchial traditions.
People who think the same and have the same basic values can resolve differences. Russia and Ukraine are not a natural pairing. Ukraine has always been the independent-minded 'problem' child for Moscow. History also demonstrates that. To focus on some histories - for example, emotional family happenings - but then to ignore arguably more influential events on the macro level is to be blind.
Putin clearly does not understand Ukraine - hence his 'soft' invasion that failed miserably now turning into a quagmire. To maintain as some do on this thread that Ukraine is sacrificing its men and its cities 'at western direction' is a stupidity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesychios
You are living in the past.
Poland is helping Ukraine at this time, during this crises.
The cruel actions of nobility and monarchy from wherever they came in past generations have nothing to do with these two democracies today. They face a common threat to their freedom and security today, and they do what they can do for each other.
My bold of your text: precisely. Democracies function differently than dictatorships, which is what Russia has become for that appears to be its cultural comfort level with its peoples particularly susceptible to 'we vs they' thinking and propagandas. Thinking differently leads to acting differently.
Last edited by EveryLady; 06-07-2022 at 08:45 AM..
Do you have ANY idea, what you talking about? Like, ANY? You ever looked at history of Polish-Ukrainian relationship? When endemic population, since circa 15th century, was turned into bydlo, "cattle"? When there was not a century without local and Cossacks, uprising against Polish atrocities? When there was more blood on Polish hands, than Russia will EVER manage to get? For 500 years Ukraine was nothing but a stomped Polish colony, hated religiously, with artificial religion created just for Ukrainians, to turn them into Catholicism. And, here you - noble Poles becoming best friends to Ukrainians. Aight! Do you have any idea, how many Polaks UPA/OUN killed in the 20th century? You think, this was forgotten?
Even if this does not work, let me tell you, what my grandfather told me. He was the only Ukrainian, working at then Roemer plant in Lviv, in 1930s. German owned. He was at factory meeting and, suddenly, entire crew exploaded "Zabic' Ukrain'cow!", Kill Ukrainians. He sadi - I am sitting there, trying to become as little, as I possibly could, waiting to get a blow on the back of my head.
No? Still not enough? Well, let me tell you, what my grandmother told me. After they were repressed in 1947, lost all possessions and civil rights, sent to Siberia to almost certain death.
She said - Always remeber. I lived among Russians, Kazakhs, Chinese, Mongols and what not. But there is not a worse enemy to a Ukrainian, than Polak.
Sheesh...
Poland is helping Ukraine at this time, during this crises.
The cruel actions of nobility and monarchy from wherever they came in past generations have nothing to do with these two democracies today. They face a common threat to their freedom and security today, and they do what they can do for each other.
Exactly! Just like today's Germany has nothing to do with Dritte Reich!
In the north of Kharkiv Region, fighting continues in Tsupivka, Velyki Prokhody and Ternova.
ISW
Quote:
A #Russian Telegram channel reported that fighting is occurring in Tsupivka, Velyki Prokhody, and Ternova as a result of #Ukrainian counterattacks. 2/2
Telegram/rybar
Quote:
Eastern bank of Seversky Donets from Izyum to Severodonetsk is completely cleared from the enemy.
ISW
Quote:
New: #Russian forces likely retain control over most of #Severodonetsk as of June 6, though the exact situation in the city remains unclear. Heavy urban fighting is ongoing, and control of terrain is likely changing hands frequently.
Telegram/rybar
Quote:
In Svyatohir'sk the AFU have destroyed the last bridge over the river. The city's defenses have fallen and the troops have begun to surrender.
Did not make ISW radar
Telegram/rybar
Quote:
Russian Armed Forces are attacking the 14th Mechanized Brigade positions near Popasna: there are heavy artillery duels and fighting occuring near Berestove, Nahirne and Belogorovka.
Quote:
DPR People's Militia forces occupy enemy strongholds near Avdiivka: allied forces have reached Krasnohorivka and Kamianka.
ISW
Quote:
Russian forces continued mortar, artillery, rocket, air, and ground attacks east of Bakhmut on June 6.[15] Russian troops unsuccessfully attempted to advance westwards toward Bakhmut from Bilohorivka, Komyshuvakha, Berestove, and Mykailivka with the intention of cutting across roadways to the northeast of Bakmut.[16] Territorial defense forces of the Donetsk People’s Republic (DNR) reportedly made incremental advances in the Donetsk City-Avdiivka area and reportedly pushed Ukrainian forces away from Avdiivka, established positions in Kamyanka (5 km northeast of Avdiivka), and took control of Zelenyi Hai and Petrivske (both within 70 km southwest of Avdiivka).[17] Advances to the southwest of Avdiivka are likely intended to gain access to the H20 highway to drive northward to support operations in Avdiivka, which in turn is a likely attempt to drive up the H20 highway toward the Kramatorsk-Slovyansk area.
Telegram/rybar
Quote:
RAF have disabled AFU bridge in Davydiv Brid and destroyed AFU forces in the settlement. The settlement is back under Russian army control
ISW/George Barros
Quote:
We are unable to verify unconfirmed Russian milblogger reports from Rybar and Swodki claiming that Russian forces destroyed the Ukrainian bridgehead near Davydiv Brid and counterattacked across the Inhulets River in Bila Krynytsya on June 5 and 6 at this time.
Overall not a bad assessment. Lines up closely with ISW. it doesn't matter who one is rooting for, getting an accurate assessment on the ground is the primary objective. There is a tendency for Russians to make pre-mature claims while Ukraine make delayed claims...Severodonetsk seems to be the exception.
Poland is helping Ukraine at this time, during this crises.
The cruel actions of nobility and monarchy from wherever they came in past generations have nothing to do with these two democracies today. They face a common threat to their freedom and security today, and they do what they can do for each other.
Is it really helping Ukraine if you are prolonging the war causing more death and destruction? I know that many people dont want Russia to take over and I agree that it is wrong that Russia invaded. However, is it better to have an annhilated country with the same government or to have an intact country with more people alive but a different management company?
Is it really helping Ukraine if you are prolonging the war causing more death and destruction? I know that many people dont want Russia to take over and I agree that it is wrong that Russia invaded. However, is it better to have an annhilated country with the same government or to have an intact country with more people alive but a different management company?
That would depend in large part on the new management company's agenda, wouldn't it? And the thing is, Ukraine already has experience with that management company. It's that experience, that motivated them to go their own way in 1990/91.
Get it?
Otherwise, I agree, that it's a very painful decision to have to make: between prolonging the war, which means more citizen deaths (as well as military) and destruction, vs. surrendering a large section of the country to "management company", a portion of the country that, bear in mind, holds most of the country's subsurface natural resources. Plus, Russia seems to want the entire coastline, so--what to do about that?
And if Russia succeeds in taking the territory it wants, what next? If its invasion strategy works, which neighbors will it try the strategy on next?
There are no easy answers here. The fact that roughly a dozen countries opted OUT of the "management company" you're suggesting, tells you something about what it's like to live under its management.
Is it really helping Ukraine if you are prolonging the war causing more death and destruction? I know that many people dont want Russia to take over and I agree that it is wrong that Russia invaded. However, is it better to have an annhilated country with the same government or to have an intact country with more people alive but a different management company?
I take this as a rhetorical question.
The American Revolution lasted eight years, most of that time spent in retreat of the patriots and occupation by the enemy.
I am sure that there were people in France who asked to same question you are asking here. I think it was worth the effort then, and what we are doing now is well worth the effort. Freedom is priceless.
Putin was hoping to just use the Russian army as a prop to achieve regime change. Clearly they were not expecting the kind of united coordinated resistance they have been met with. The deep divisions between Russian speaking and Ukrainian speaking citizens turned out to be not so deep after all, they are strongly united in not wanting to be ground down under the bootheel of Putin's corrupt and autocratic state. Russia underestimated the Ukrainians, and over-estimated themselves.
It is not for us to determine when the fight will end, or what the acceptable outcome should be. Ukraine itself will determine that and if they want to fight for their freedom, as a fellow democracy we should try to assist them.
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