Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It was a bogus referendum like all Russian referendums.
See, this is your attitude, and that of some other posters.... if it's Russian, it's bad/wrong/evil/"bogus."
"Like ALL Russian referendums" - name another.........
When more than 95% of the Crimean population FREELY voted and voted in FAVOR of joining Russia, there's nothing bogus about it. Crimea was always Russian (and as I wrote here and in the other thread), it was given to Ukraine only in 1954 by Nikita Khruschev in violation of the Soviet constitution.
Until then it had ALWAYS been Russian.... and thankfully it will now, and always, remain Russian.
See, this is your attitude, and that of some other posters.... if it's Russian, it's bad/wrong/evil/"bogus."
"Like ALL Russian referendums" - name another.........
When more than 95% of the Crimean population FREELY voted and voted in FAVOR of joining Russia, there's nothing bogus about it. Crimea was always Russian (and as I wrote here and in the other thread), it was given to Ukraine only in 1954 by Nikita Khruschev in violation of the Soviet constitution.
Until then it had ALWAYS been Russian.... and thankfully it will now, and always, remain Russia.
Thankfully?
I have never seen that term of endearment and gratitude used by anyone here before, regardless of their intellectual position on the conflict. It sounds patriotic.
You are not a mere outsider with an opinion, it seems.
See, this is your attitude, and that of some other posters.... if it's Russian, it's bad/wrong/evil/"bogus.".
That is not their attitude or the rest of us. We are just saying what everyone is thinking. If it’s from Russia or supporting Russia, it’s a lie. That has been the case since Kennedy and the missile crisis, and certainly since Reagan’s “Trust but verify†policy towards Russia. That was Putin’s dream time, when Russia was at the heights of their lies, making the USSR a superpower completely falsely without ever having to prove it. Only the fear of nukes propping them up, which we believed more back then, now decades of decay and discreditation have made even that threat hollow.
Now we all know it’s always a lie with Russia. No trust, any verification can disprove the lies.
See, this is your attitude, and that of some other posters.... if it's Russian, it's bad/wrong/evil/"bogus."
...
It will be difficult for Ukraine to find peace with Russia, under Putin Russia can not be taken at it's word. Any 'agreement' will not be worth the paper it is written on.
It will be difficult for Ukraine to find peace with Russia, under Putin Russia can not be taken at it's word. Any 'agreement' will not be worth the paper it is written on.
That is based on what specific facts? Please.
As example of facts:
Well, the US is an unreliable international partner—and it has long been one, even before the current administration pulled out from the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) and the Paris agreement on climate change, and threatened to end NAFTA. History is dotted with treaties that the US has signed but not ratified, signed and then unsigned, and even refused to sign after pushing everyone else to sign. Capriciousness about international treaties is an old US tradition. It starts with the country’s very creation: hundreds of treaties signed with Native American tribes that were either broken, or not ratified. Today, the US is one of the countries to have ratified the fewest number of international human rights treaties—of the 18 agreements passed by the UN, America has only ratified five.
Well, the US is an unreliable international partner—and it has long been one, even before the current administration pulled out from the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) and the Paris agreement on climate change, and threatened to end NAFTA. History is dotted with treaties that the US has signed but not ratified, signed and then unsigned, and even refused to sign after pushing everyone else to sign.
Man the Russian attempts to spread propaganda are so ham handed its hilarious. I think their best folks have either bailed, or are intentionally doing a bad job.
They cant figure out if its a war (it is) because their government made it a crime...to call a war...a war.
Then they claim that the war....err...special operation is against NAzis in Ukraine! Then It was NATO. Then it was the US, etc etc etc. They have ZERO idea why theyre fighting, who theyre fighting, or how its going to go.
Eventually they're going to realize that theyre fighting because Putin wants a legacy. Nothing else. Heck, they took the steel plant by destroying it, and are saying they will turn it into a resort for the rich. That theyre fighting people that used to be part of the soviet union with them. And that with the world being against them on this its going to go very very badly.
Bottom line? This is a loss, the only question now is how big. Lets say Russia TAKES Ukraine somehow. The world won't suddenly say 'ok whelp, you won, lets drop the sanctions'. Even if Russia wins, they lose at this point.
I'm loosing faith in western support for Ukraine..military experts say the 4 long range rocket systems the US is sending and the 3 or 4 that Great Britian is sending is but a mere drop in the ocean for what they effectively need..a British artillery commander says that maybe 100 might make a difference..start watching the video at 5:00 in..
My theory is they are testing the waters and will probably send more, if not this weapon, it will be something else. People all over the world finally see what Russia really is: a brutal aggressor that had no problem with invading a neighbor, killing civilians, raping women, and stealing food and livelihood of Ukraine.
Donbas, of course, supported Yanukovych its native son who rewarded the area with a disproportionate number of appointments and national tax receipts. It was possible for a pro-Russian to be elected in 2010 and again a Russian-speaker in 2019 (albeit with more support from the east). That's part of the larger tragedy: while historical and ethnic divisions existed within the country its Russian minority was well integrated far more so than in other potential hot spots - until Strelkov and Putin destabilized Ukraine using militarized forces.
No it's not "Putin or Strelkov" that "destabilized" Ukraine.
It was the coup d'etat sponsored by America that destabilized Ukraine.
Before that, Ukrainian West lived its own life and didn't interfere in the cultural life of the South East, its language or beliefs.
The South East of the country was quietly tolerating the Western part and their "cultural icons."
Once Americans supported specifically the Nationalists from the Western part of the country and encouraged them to create the Nationalist state that they were dreaming of already for long time, they attacked South-East.
The reaction from the South-East followed, and that's how Ukraine was destabilized ( using your terminology.)
Quote:
Its Kharkiv, among other cities, that I was thinking of when saying events are local. Kharkiv rejected separatism in 2014 due to influence from multiple local power centers but oddly enough not an American in sight. Outside the oligarchical and political influences not to mention (for Kharkiv) the criminal element, the larger population while prizing Russian culture and language had little interest in Russian domination - Donbas style.
Kharkov rejected separatism in 2014 because its very influential mayor realized early in the game that Russia was not going to bring the army in, and won't give the adequate support to rebels, as much as initially a lot of people in Kharkov were hopeful for the creation of the separate "Kharkov's people Republic," in the same manner as in LDNR.
Hence, Gennady Kernes ( Kharkov's mayor) understood that if he would proceed with this idea and would back up the rebels ( who announced the coup d'etat in Kiev illegal,) Kharkov would become the arena of the military actions, and the city would be destroyed.
Kernes was one of the very few people in charge in Ukraine, who in spite of his corruption and extensive "business ties" was actually doing a good job as a mayor. He was taking care of Kharkov wholeheartedly; the city was clean and constantly updated. Its citizenry in their turn were paying Kernes with respect and loyalty, so his "local decision" to save the city from destruction on the basis of situation - the way he understood it, was respected.
I've heard his last interview, shortly before his death, to certain Ukrainian media outlet, ( they were talking about the Nationalists in the city,) and although K. was very cautious when he talked, even the fact that he gave interview to this specific media outlet, was VERY TELLING.
So to the Russians that tried to accuse him of betrayal of the "Kharkov People republic," I'd say that betrayal didn't come from him. Betrayal came from Russia.
(You can learn more about Kernes and events connected to him here - it might give you a better insight.)
Quote:
Earlier I cited local newspaper articles from 8 years ago discussing how Kharkiv, a university town substantially differed in outlook from your rough Donbas miners. All Russian-speakers are not identical. In Odessa, Gennadiy Trukhanov had become mayor by May 2014. A pro-Russian, but still in the end a Ukrainian 'nationalist' - and again another story. Once again, these gross generalizations always leading back to the Americans or neo-Nazis are a non-starter.
I don't make any "generalizations," and it all still leads back to Americans and the Nationalists that they backed.
You can't imagine how many Russian speakers in Ukraine - public figures that is, changed their colors and allegiance during the first years of the conflict, Zelensky including.
Quote:
Certainly Americans were meddling, but they were only one of multiple influences.
They were the most decisive factor in all this, while Russia stepped back, not playing role as any meaningful force.
Quote:
Oddly enough they appeared willing to meddle working with Yanukovych which goes counter to the 'coup-story.' One more very complex situation that gets grossly simplified.
I am not going to go through all these pretenses of the Western powers, that tried to act like they WERE sticking to any of their so-called "guarantees."
Quote:
More broadly, Ukrainians long-sought independence from Russia ...
More broadly - Western Ukraine, that was never historically part of Russia until 1939.
They didn't take part even in the all-people referendum of the USSR back in 1991, where 70% of Ukrainians voted to stay with Russians.
Quote:
it was impacted by the rise of nationalism in the 19th century ... various events including the Putin invasion in 2014-15 helped tie the country together. With an enemy in town so-to-speak, nationalism and nationalistic displays did become more evident thru-out the country.
I am filling in all those ellipses for you. And since you are missing a lot of information between them, the picture is obviously NOT the one you are trying to build.
Quote:
That showed by 2022,
What showed by 2022 is that Americans were not asleep, proceeding with "Ukraine as anti-Russia project," training and supplying Ukrainian army, and backing the Nationalists and their actions.
Quote:
along with troops trained for a resurgence of the 2014-15 invasion - another Putin error.
Oh Putin's error was there alright - that is that he didn't act accordingly back in 2014 and let it all happen, let it all come to it.
Quote:
Arguably this had more to do with Putin than the Americans and certainly little if nothing to do with the German Nazis during ww2. If anything neo-Nazi extremists groups were a potential threat to the central government and to the oligarchy and to a western-oriented foreign policy - although for now they hate Russians more.
Yep. He had a chance to respond to American aggression and to protect the South-East from it, but he did not.
Now the good question is why.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
