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Just as I'm not invalidating your personal experience by sharing mine, when I said someone has to take care of the kids, I meant just that. Not child-free and male employees should take up their slack (as though male employees dont have kids). The post I responded to didnt even say that was your personal experience.
Sounds to me you just had crappy employers if it put so much on you for women to come in late or leave early occasionally ( I assume no men ever did that). As well they let only mother's make demands, and have first pick of vacation. All employers I know have rules that apply across the board. Employees really cant make demands unless they are extremely valuable to the company and the company dosent want to lose them. I would have found another job.
You posted "Not been my experience ..." and then went on to write at length what your experience was and essentially negating my and other posters' experiences. Your intent was clear. Reread it.
Now you're saying I must have had crappy employers but state for yourself "All the employers I know have rules ..." and "Employees really can't make demands unless they are extremely valuable." Again, invalidating my and others' experiences and saying I should have found another job.
Sounds like you like to blame, negate, and invalidate anyone who doesn't agree with you. I'm not the only poster who has endured exploitive motherhood used at work. Read their posts.
You posted "Not been my experience ..." and then went on to write at length what your experience was and essentially negating my and other posters' experiences. Your intent was clear. Reread it.
Now you're saying I must have had crappy employers but state for yourself "All the employers I know have rules ..." and "Employees really can't make demands unless they are extremely valuable." Again, invalidating my and others' experiences and saying I should have found another job.
Sounds like you like to blame, negate, and invalidate anyone who doesn't agree with you. I'm not the only poster who has endured exploitive motherhood used at work. Read their posts.
Oh, and "occasionally"? No, dear -- frequently.
Oh good grief. Yes I said what you described had not been my experience and I elaborated what mine was. That is called communication. There was no intent. You did not even say that was your experiences, you just made accusations as to what you want to believe I meant by "someone has to care for the kids".
Yes IMO, you had a crappy employer. If I worked for an employer who granted every demand of workers, allowed vacation dates based being a mother instead of tenure or another equitable, logical way and had to shift an unreasonable amount of work load because someone comes in late or leaves early I would consider that a crappy employer and would look for another job. How does my opinion of those things invalidate anyones experience.
You seem to be of the opinion that mothers should not be in the workforce if they have to take personal days to care for their kids. How does your opinion blame, negate and invalidate me because I dont agree with you?
Oh good grief. Yes I said what you described had not been my experience and I elaborated what mine was. That is called communication. There was no intent. You did not even say that was your experiences, you just made accusations as to what you want to believe I meant by "someone has to care for the kids".
Yes IMO, you had a crappy employer. If I worked for an employer who granted every demand of workers, allowed vacation dates based being a mother instead of tenure or another equitable, logical way and had to shift an unreasonable amount of work load because someone comes in late or leaves early I would consider that a crappy employer and would look for another job. How does my opinion of those things invalidate anyones experience.
You seem to be of the opinion that mothers should not be in the workforce if they have to take personal days to care for their kids. How does your opinion blame, negate and invalidate me because I dont agree with you?
I have no idea what your fifth sentence means.
I had several employers, not one, over a 40+ years career. No employer granted "every demand of workers." Your exaggerations aren't helpful. And few people job hop over the decades because certain working conditions aren't fair. If you had your own company, as you claim you did, you'd know that. Good jobs aren't that easy to find and keep, especially if you enjoy the work.
Wrong again. I repeatedly stated women who came in late, left early, eschewed overtime and travel, and took the choicest holidays and vacation days were a hardship on their co-workers. I said nothing about these women taking personal days. Your inaccuracies aren't helpful.
I get it. Estrogen-fueled mentality renders some women incapable of seeing anything past themselves and reproduction. However, not everyone thinks that way. You'd be unpleasantly surprised at the messages I've received from a number of women complaining about the same things I've described. Most of them are working moms who didn't exploit their motherhood status at the expense of their co-workers, and they resented those who did.
Go back to the beginning of this thread and read others' opinions who dovetail with mine. I'm not alone in my experiences.
It means my response was not to your personal experiences. I stated someone has to be responsible for the children and you began to tell me what I was saying. And stated I was negating your personal experience by sharing mine. You didn’t say that was your experience
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I had several employers, not one, over a 40+ years career. No employer granted "every demand of workers." Your exaggerations aren't helpful. And few people job hop over the decades because certain working conditions aren't fair. If you had your own company, as you claim you did, you'd know that. Good jobs aren't that easy to find and keep, especially if you enjoy the work.
You said “My husband and I know firsthand about working moms who, because they reproduce, make high demands on their companies and co-workers”
then went on to say
“Child-free employees, and male employees with or without children, are told to shut up and take up the work slack, do longer hours and travel, and accept last choice of vacation days and holidays.”
That sound pretty much like employers granting every demand of mothers. And I never said I owned a company, I said at my company as in I work there.
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Wrong again. I repeatedly stated women who came in late, left early, eschewed overtime and travel, and took the choicest holidays and vacation days were a hardship on their co-workers. I said nothing about these women taking personal days. Your inaccuracies aren't helpful.
“holidays because YOU have children and YOU use all your personal days for raising YOUR children”
I was thinking what type of company has employees that must vie for holidays. Don’t most employees get the same holidays off unless it is retail or food service where they remain open on holidays. Kind of the same if an employee coming in late or leaving early causes hardship of the other employees. We have a few employees who cant come in on time to save their life. Right now I’m picking up job responsibilities for a girl who is going part time to train for another job.
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I get it. Estrogen-fueled mentality renders some women incapable of seeing anything past themselves and reproduction. However, not everyone thinks that way. You'd be unpleasantly surprised at the messages I've received from a number of women complaining about the same things I've described. Most of them are working moms who didn't exploit their motherhood status at the expense of their co-workers, and they resented those who did.
There will always be some self centered entitled people wanting others to support their choices. As I said in my experience working mothers just deal with it. They go part time, quit and their husbands are the sole breadwinner, or quit and get on assistance.
There are about 35 million working mothers in the US. 40 percent of women don’t qualify for the Family Medical Leave Act (FMLA). Only 12% of women in the private sector have access to any sort of paid maternity leave so I'm not sure what your up in arms about. Its not just mothers who are late for work or leave early, or take time off for sickness, or medical issues, or go on vacation. And I'm not buying that over 30 years you and your husband have been so put out at work due to maternity leave (average is two weeks unpaid) and lateness by only working mothers. Maybe its true but its odd and definitely not the norm.
Sometimes covering for other employees is just the nature of the job, it is not specific to mothers. My son works maintenance and they work 3 twelves one week, 4 twelves the next. If one is out sick, vacation, late, etc. another maintenance guy from a different day/shift has to fill in their hours. Sometimes he has to work 10 days straight 10-12 hours/day. It was really bad during Covid. They also never get a holiday off if that day lands on their scheduled day to work. You deal with it or find different employment if your employers policy puts you out so much.
Why is that the biggest question? People are single parents because 1. they had while not in a marriage/committed relationship 2. they divorced and 3. death of a spouse
should rules/policies/law be written on the basis of ones situation or judgement by others?
in 2 of these circumstances, the mother isn't supposed to be the sole income for the children. IMO, in all 3 cases, the solo parent/income mother isn't supposed to be having more children they cannot provide for or parent effectively.
"The biggest question" = "show us the statistical breakdown of type".
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It used to be, not necessarily young SAHM but older women would keep children in their home. Then the government stepped in with laws, regulations and certifications. Not everyone lives on a street with good friends.
But that is my point. I am no longer parent of kids < 5 yrs old, but I was 15 years ago. I am involved broadly with a # of families with young kids still. What "dual income families" that aren't in the top 10% need is safe and cheap "babysitting" which gets more "developmental" once a child can walk, talk, begin overt learning. Yet rules, regulations, and social expectations of a large % of these parents believe a simple daycare has to be "five star" ... which comes with a commensurate pricetag.
My husband and I are child-free, by mutual choice. We both took up the slack for decades when working mothers came in late, left early, got out of overtime and travel, and had the first pick of holidays and vacation days. It affected me more than my husband, because there weren't many women in his engineering field, and those who gave birth often took their paid maternity leave, then quit.
My husband and I know firsthand about working moms who, because they reproduce, make high demands on their companies and co-workers. We were thankful for working moms who didn't expect everyone to cater to their life choices.
Interestingly, the several Asian women (from India, Japan, and China) I worked with didn't exploit their motherhood at the expense of anyone. They were prompt, didn't leave early, worked full days and overtime, and remained pleasant and professional. Their children were exemplary. These woman arranged their professional and private lives in a very satisfactory manner, without complaints, whining, or outstretched hands.
we seem to be completely on the same page, even if our essays aren't 100% in agreement.
In a "utopian" world, we would pay mothers for a year or more - when they were educated and productive in the workforce. But in exchange for those payments - to encourage "high quality babies" - we'd also force birth control on any woman who was not, and would rely on government assistance and programs to effectively raise their children. Or at a minimum, once they had the first child (which would mean less money for the productive to enjoy).
in 2 of these circumstances, the mother isn't supposed to be the sole income for the children. IMO, in all 3 cases, the solo parent/income mother isn't supposed to be having more children they cannot provide for or parent effectively.
"The biggest question" = "show us the statistical breakdown of type".
But that is my point. I am no longer parent of kids < 5 yrs old, but I was 15 years ago. I am involved broadly with a # of families with young kids still. What "dual income families" that aren't in the top 10% need is safe and cheap "babysitting" which gets more "developmental" once a child can walk, talk, begin overt learning. Yet rules, regulations, and social expectations of a large % of these parents believe a simple daycare has to be "five star" ... which comes with a commensurate pricetag.
Well life dosent always work out as planned. There is not really any supposed to be this way. In divorce child support dosent allow you to not work full time, generally in the majority of situations. I would say the children are born when one has a mate and/or is in better financial shape, not after things go downhill. Situations where multiple children are born to single women the family is generally on government assistance so I dont think that applies to being overworked and wanting employer or government benefits in addition to your income.
I still dont see why it matters. If you are trying to hold down a full time job to support your children it should not matter why you are working full time or how many kids you have.
I agree with you assessment of child care. When mine were young and I did not have family to babysit they stayed with older women who kept a few kids in their home. There really wasn't many actual daycare centers at all. Then the government began regulating these in home "daycares". I worked all through my marriage with the exception of 6 weeks unpaid maternity leave, and I worked after my husbands death. Our youngest was 2. When he was old enough, I got him in the Head Start program which was a great help as I was working part time jobs and finishing my degree, so money was tight.
Now, my observation is that daycare employees have to record every pee, poop, barf, belch, fart, booboo, etc. of every child, send multiple text on how the child's day is going and a few face times as well. And they arent babysitters they are "teachers". Even so, the one star daycares are not cheap and there are not enough of them. Supply isnt keeping up with demand.
Just to be clear, I'm not in favor of all the family related provisions in the build back better bill, but if it is workers this country wants some provisions will have to be met to keep women in the work force and providing future workers. I dont think 4 weeks paid family leave and some childcare subsidies are over the top. Otherwise they will just stop having kids (which I dont see as a bad thing). Except this push to ban abortions and make some BC harder to get might put and end to that choice. Then we will just have more women and children on welfare.
we seem to be completely on the same page, even if our essays aren't 100% in agreement.
In a "utopian" world, we would pay mothers for a year or more - when they were educated and productive in the workforce. But in exchange for those payments - to encourage "high quality babies" - we'd also force birth control on any woman who was not, and would rely on government assistance and programs to effectively raise their children. Or at a minimum, once they had the first child (which would mean less money for the productive to enjoy).
Why not force BC on men who are not willing or able to support their children and the mothers of their children?
Why not force BC on men who are not willing or able to support their children and the mothers of their children?
Why do you think it's up to you to tell people how to live ?
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