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To "give up" on an entire nation, of which one is a citizen, is an extreme and unwarranted reaction... especially so, if said nation remains uniquely prosperous and powerful.
That said, the recent political/social developments give adherents of the one or the other side, plenty of reason to reconsider a reflexive and unexamined patriotism. There's plenty of cause to simultaneously live in a nation, with relative satisfaction and good cheer, but to regard the nation with skepticism and detachment. Why? Because one may be thus skeptical of ALL nations, or even of the concept of nations, but without getting so jaded or isolated or dejected, that one feels unable to function.
Reviewing this thread, filtering out the shrill sniping, I am amazed at how a comparatively reasoned argument can be given on this or that issue, that is so diametrically opposed to my own views. It's not just passion, though assuredly passion predisposes us to prefer certain arguments. It's a systematic weighing of premises and drawing of a conclusion... that I find to be horrifying.
Thus "agreeing to disagree". What does that mean? In practice it means abiding society as it is, but doing so, without adoration or feeling of deep kinship. We just move along....
It means while we might not agree on say politics... we can agree to disagree, change the subject if necessary and still be friends, family, co-workers ect.
If someone is a Trump supporter and the other supports Biden why discuss politics if you only end up arguing.
My sister enjoys virtue-signaling. She'll tosses out political bait and hope someone bites. The problem is not everyone at the table or gathering is always on the page politically. This in turn can put a damper on the mood or worse turn things ugly.
Here is the bill. Still on the state government website. Bottom of the first page. Maybe you didn’t learn reading comprehension.
If they tried once they will try again. As they have done for 50 years.
Well, well, well.
You were so busy insulting me with your pathetic “maybe you can’t read” comments, that you forgot to do your research.
You were quoting the introduced bill and not the bill that went to committee. The bill that went to committee is the one that passed. The law on the books in the state of Missouri makes no mention of ectopic pregnancies.
This link (under “Bill Text”) shows the two different bills…
The first “introduced” bill is what was initially proposed. The second “committee” bill—which removes all mention of ectopic pregnancies—is what was voted on.
Here is a link to the text of the voted on and passed bill:
And for your convenience, here is almost the entire first page:
Quote:
Section A. Sections 338.270 and 338.337, RSMo, are repealed and three new sections enacted in lieu thereof, to be known as sections 188.090, 338.270, and 338.337, to read as follows:
188.090. 1. A person or entity commits the offense of trafficking abortion- inducing drugs if such person or entity knowingly imports, exports, distributes, delivers, manufactures, produces, prescribes, administers, or dispenses or attempts to import, export, distribute, deliver, manufacture, produce, prescribe, administer, or dispense any medicine, drug, or any other substance to be used for the purpose of inducing an abortion on another person in violation of any state or federal law.
2. The offense of trafficking abortion-inducing drugs is a class B felony.
3. A woman upon whom an abortion was induced or was attempted to be induced in violation of this section shall not be prosecuted for:
(1) Violating any of the provisions of this section;
(2) A conspiracy to violate any of the provisions of this section; or
(3) Being criminally responsible for the conduct of another person who, or an
entity which, violated any of the provisions of this section.
338.270. 1. Application blanks for renewal permits shall be mailed to each permittee on or before the first day of the month in which the permit expires and, if application for renewal of permit is not made before the first day of the following month, the existing permit, or renewal thereof, shall lapse and become null and void upon the last day of that month.
I don’t know if you were intentionally misleading everyone here or if you just don’t understand how to research or how the legislative process works, but you are completely and totally wrong about the Missouri law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by odinloki1
The bills sponsor and his claims and intents mean nothing read the letter of the law. That’s how conservatives like Gorsuch read it.
Read it like a strict textualist that’s what the the conservatives do.
This comment is completely irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinytrump
Yup - it Reads as follows: now I give it maybe in her state she got care, for the present.
14 (2) The abortion was performed or induced or was attempted to be performed or
15 induced on a woman who has an ectopic pregnancy;
No Tiny. That is what the proposed bill read.
The actual (modified) bill is quoted above. There is no mention of ectopic pregnancy.
I am sure you are as relieved as I am to know that there is no law against helping women with ectopic pregnancies in Missouri or anywhere else in the country.
And I do thank you for your condolences upthread. It was a long time ago and I was lucky enough to carry two children to full term following that.
Last edited by calgirlinnc; 06-26-2022 at 12:34 PM..
Well alrighty then. What ever happened to Jazzlover and our guy from ... maybe moved to Green River Utah or something, used to live maybe near our other friend HH in Grand Junction? Anyway, yeah, we disagree on politics for sure, but rest assured, my parents, who recently passed away, would agree with you.
The last I heard from Jazzlover, he had moved to Chama, NM and had gotten some sort of gig on the Cumbres & Toltec railroad - very clever of him. He managed to leave Colorado without really leaving Colorado. I miss him. He and I were friends here on CD and I wish he'd return. Not sure who you mean by "our guy from..." Are you thinking of jim9251? If so, he's still around although he doesn't post as often as he once did. I believe he moved to Ouray and I suspect he found himself a new gf at long last.
And my parents who passed away 10 years ago and who were staunch conservatives would be with you 100%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog
You cannot sell me on Russia Russia Russia and DJT being any more intimate with Putin than HRC and BHO.
Nah, I'm not going to go on about Russia to the nth degree. However, Putin DID invade the Ukraine and the entire world has been suffering from the impact of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog
But anyway, the economy is simple. Biden screwed it up by his day one executive orders and shutting down pipelines, and yes he did do exactly that. We have crude and we have nG. We need to get after that and should have set Germany and other countries up and shut Russia down. We should have done all this way before it was too late. Afghanistan, Bagram Airfield, we should have never ever gave that up. I won't go into the rest of the blunders of the donkeys. History books will some day be written about it, in truth. Our "intelligence community" being used against a political party by it's rival is disgusting.
Do you deny this? I really need to know. If you do, how can you deny this? If you don't, how can you justify it?
Yes, I know that Biden shut down the pipelines and that there were consequences that were not always happy ones. I also agree that we could have done more to support our European allies and that we should have done far more than what we did to shut Russia down.
However...
I know that most conservatives are still not on board about the climate crisis, but I am here to tell you that climate change is already happening and that the consequences of our lack of action will be dire if we continue on with business as usual. I state this not because I am blindly following the "donkey" party line (I consider myself to be a mule, btw). I studied environmental science and climatology at UC Boulder and I have spent my lifetime up in the Colorado mountains as much as I possibly could. The evidence is plain to see - especially down here in the hard hit Four Corners. If you are a skeptic, I invite you to come out here some time and I will give you a tour of the San Juan Mountains where the devastation will break even the hardest of hearts. It is for this reason that I condone Biden shutting down pipelines.
The US has mishandled the situation in Afghanistan and the rest of the Middle East from beginning to end. We should have focused all our attention on finding Bin Laden and his hiding place up in Afghanistan mountains right from the very start. The war with Iraq was merely a diversion that Bush II insisted conducting in order to save face with his old man. Iraq did not bomb us and then provide a refuge for the Saudis who did. We have an outstanding military force that includes:
USMC Fleet Anti-Terrorism Security Team.
USAF Pararescuemen, PJ.
US Army 75th Ranger Regiment.
USMC MARSOC.
US Army Intelligence Support Activity.
USMC Force Reconnaissance.
US Navy Seals.
US Army Delta Force.
Don't tell me that these highly trained and skilled US military forces could not have gone in and got the job done in far less than the 20 years we spent there attempting to win the hearts and minds of the Afghani people all to no avail. Biden was no more than the final Bungler in Chief when he pulled the remainder of our forces out of Afghanistan. I still have close ties with our military and the scenes of the last days at Bagram Airfield simply enraged me.
IMHO, both parties have misused the intelligence community in different ways and at different times. We will never know to what extent and for what purpose(s) at least in our lifetimes. Maybe after everyone now alive has finally died, some intrepid reporter or historian will finally spill the beans. This casual use of national resources and agencies to accomplish useful outcomes by whatever party which happens to be in charge at the moment is just one more symptom of the slow train wreck we are experiencing in the way our country is governed. I am not at all in favor of a civil war, but something radical needs to be done to change all of these things, and it should have been done by yesterday.
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog
Anyways, I don't think the Abortion/Gun Control thing is anything besides an annoyance to either party. We live in an Abortion Happy state, so what's the stress about? If you feel women are controlled by men to get proper medical care in anyway, keep up the good fight to end that.
Colorado is one state that accommodates a woman's right to determine what she does with her own body, but that doesn't mean that Coloradans can simply wash their hands of the whole thing and go skiing at Telluride without a care in the world. For one thing, there is going to be the inevitable surge to Colorado of women from states where abortion is banned. Our resources here are going to be stretched to the breaking point. Coloradans may be prochoice or prolife but all Coloradans are pretty much anti tax increases. Unfortunately, we are going to have to pay for all this additional demand out of own state resources. As nice as it may be to imagine sending Texas a gimongus bill for the health care of their residents who are forced to come here for abortions, Texas would never pay up. You and I and every other Colorado taxpayer is going to have to pony up. Thanks, Texas. Thanks, Utah. Thanks, South Dakota.
In addition, I have never been one of those people who say, "Well, I got mine. Too bad for you that you didn't," and then walk away. If there is a group of people in my country who are being denied their basic rights, then their problem becomes mine. As the saying goes, "Bad things happen when good people stand by and do nothing."
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog
I don't use religion as a weapon. I don't use religion at all actually. I keep tied into the spiritual thing, a personal trip btw, so I can stay sober, important thing for me.
I understand this and I should have better worded my response to you about the Constitution. I am no fan of organized religion myself. I think that one thing we share is the strong commitment to living a spiritual life. If we don't, sooner or later we will be living no life at all.
You were so busy insulting me with your pathetic “maybe you can’t read” comments, that you forgot to do your research.
You were quoting the introduced bill and not the bill that went to committee. The bill that went to committee is the one that passed. The law on the books in the state of Missouri makes no mention of ectopic pregnancies.
The first “introduced” bill is what was initially proposed. The second “committee” bill—which removes all mention of ectopic pregnancies—is what was voted on.
Here is a link to the text of the voted on and passed bill:
And for your convenience, here is almost the entire first page:
I don’t know if you were intentionally misleading everyone here or if you just don’t understand how to research or how the legislative process works, but you are completely and totally wrong about the Missouri law.
This comment is completely irrelevant.
No Tiny. That is what the proposed bill read.
The actual (modified) bill is quoted above. There is no mention of ectopic pregnancy.
I am sure you are as relieved as I am to know that there is no law against helping women with ectopic pregnancies in Missouri or anywhere else in the country.
And I do thank you for your condolences upthread. It was a long time ago and I was lucky enough to carry two children to full term following that.
Because so much is now handled by pill or medicine, the problems would lie on getting the meds from the pharmacy. One Dr - I posted on one of these threads explained these two pills help to eject a miscarriage as well as create a mis carriage. My friend had a miscarriage, but the fetus did not abort. At that time she attempted to go to a clinic and was harassed on the way in. She was in tears from the loss and screamed to that woman - my baby is already dead!! Very traumatic event fir her. We cannot know from a law’s perspective what is happening to each woman body. The pharmacy denied to fill the prescription on this one lady who already miscarried - and if they call the cops what then?? Take the simple scenario of a normal abortion vs a complicated one. Who decides? The pharmacist- the cop? She just supposed to bleed ?
Not all places have hospitals. One reason the women’s centers became more available. However, in TX whose been fighting for a long time, were left with about 20 centers for 30 mil people. Many have to to drive 70 to 100 miles to be seen. Remember this is where women also get birth control and other care. I’m sure they will close them down.
This move is not just about a typical abortion.
Patients who have a miscarriage also sometimes need to take abortion medication or have dilation and curettage surgery — known as a D&C — to remove tissue that lingers inside the uterus.
“The challenge is that the treatment for an abortion and the treatment for a miscarriage are exactly the same,” Dr. Sarah Prager recently told KHN. Prager is a professor of obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Washington in Seattle and an expert on early pregnancy loss.
Doctors may hesitate to perform D&Cs to treat miscarriages for fear someone will accuse them of performing a covert abortion.
Because so much is now handled by pill or medicine, the problems would lie on getting the meds from the pharmacy. One Dr - I posted on one of these threads explained these two pills help to eject a miscarriage as well as create a mis carriage. My friend had a miscarriage, but the fetus did not abort. At that time she attempted to go to a clinic and was harassed on the way in. She was in tears from the loss and screamed to that woman - my baby is already dead!! Very traumatic event fir her. We cannot know from a law’s perspective what is happening to each woman body. The pharmacy denied to fill the prescription on this one lady who already miscarried - and if they call the cops what then?? Take the simple scenario of a normal abortion vs a complicated one. Who decides? The pharmacist- the cop? She just supposed to bleed ?
Not all places have hospitals. One reason the women’s centers became more available. However, in TX whose been fighting for a long time, were left with about 20 centers for 30 mil people. Many have to to drive 70 to 100 miles to be seen. Remember this is where women also get birth control and other care. I’m sure they will close them down.
This move is not just about a typical abortion.
Patients who have a miscarriage also sometimes need to take abortion medication or have dilation and curettage surgery — known as a D&C — to remove tissue that lingers inside the uterus.
“The challenge is that the treatment for an abortion and the treatment for a miscarriage are exactly the same,” Dr. Sarah Prager recently told KHN. Prager is a professor of obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Washington in Seattle and an expert on early pregnancy loss.
Doctors may hesitate to perform D&Cs to treat miscarriages for fear someone will accuse them of performing a covert abortion.
Because so much is now handled by pill or medicine, the problems would lie on getting the meds from the pharmacy. One Dr - I posted on one of these threads explained these two pills help to eject a miscarriage as well as create a mis carriage. My friend had a miscarriage, but the fetus did not abort. At that time she attempted to go to a clinic and was harassed on the way in. She was in tears from the loss and screamed to that woman - my baby is already dead!! Very traumatic event fir her. We cannot know from a law’s perspective what is happening to each woman body. The pharmacy denied to fill the prescription on this one lady who already miscarried - and if they call the cops what then?? Take the simple scenario of a normal abortion vs a complicated one. Who decides? The pharmacist- the cop? She just supposed to bleed ?
Not all places have hospitals. One reason the women’s centers became more available. However, in TX whose been fighting for a long time, were left with about 20 centers for 30 mil people. Many have to to drive 70 to 100 miles to be seen. Remember this is where women also get birth control and other care. I’m sure they will close them down.
This move is not just about a typical abortion.
Patients who have a miscarriage also sometimes need to take abortion medication or have dilation and curettage surgery — known as a D&C — to remove tissue that lingers inside the uterus.
“The challenge is that the treatment for an abortion and the treatment for a miscarriage are exactly the same,” Dr. Sarah Prager recently told KHN. Prager is a professor of obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Washington in Seattle and an expert on early pregnancy loss.
Doctors may hesitate to perform D&Cs to treat miscarriages for fear someone will accuse them of performing a covert abortion.
read todays NYT. The politicians are already going after medications. You are right, some of the same meds used for abortion are also used to treat miscarriages and ectopic pregnancies.
Wow, I just came back from a long vacation visit with my grandsons, at my oldest DD's and son in law's rural place. While I was there, I observed and participated in a lot of their small-town type activities. I went to a Cub Scout meeting where we celebrated Flag Day, and the troop leader explained the significance and importance of the flag, what it represents, how veterans had died for it, and how to "retire" it respectfully when it got too worn out to display. The Cubs lined up with outstretched arms and were given the flags to put on the bon fire the assistant master had prepared. This was done out doors in the field of a rural park.
One kid, he seemed to examine every flag he was handed to put on the fire, argued that it was "fixable". It could be sewn, the mossy green could be washed out, whatever. The kids were allowed to take flags home they wanted, and this kid must have taken half a dozen.
But I noticed a lot of the kids took home flags that had nothing wrong with them, nothing that noticeably needed patching or sewing, and they had new respect for them. Hey, maybe our country is "fixable", the Cub Scouts think.
BTW, I spent three weeks in this little burg "away from the news" (DD doesn't have cable news) and it felt good to be at scout meetings and library club activities and other events that had nothing to do with current events.
Last edited by Mrs. Skeffington; 06-26-2022 at 04:47 PM..
Part of human nature is older people catastrophizing and thinking the world is going to hell because the younger generation thinks differently from the way they do. Part of human nature is getting caught up in Petty squabbles and not being able to see the forest through the trees. Chances are everything is going to be all right. Even if we go through a collapse as long as the species survives and we pick up our boots and get back on that horse it will be okay.
This planet is not designed to be a paradise. There's going to be suffering it's baked into the system. If you're so concerned that people think differently from the way that you do I would suggest keeping an open mind and trying to accept others. As long as they don't infringe upon your right to live your lives don't worry about them.
I will admit I'm not particularly fond of the species and the idea of having to incarnate on this planet over and over over the course of hundreds of thousands of years is not something that appeals to me. And yet there's part of me that thinks my soul chooses to come back here because it likes the challenge. What challenge? Why not just upload the collective knowledge of the entire universe into each and every one of us? I suppose because oneness is boring and we had to create a playground where we could play around and have fun in our little simulation, and you can't have pleasure without pain. It's that duality, that contrast, that makes people appreciate the good.... However you define it.
To be clear, I was talking about the loss of basic freedoms, and not just differences of opinions as to what is okay and what is not considered to be okay, regarding a whole range of issues. I am not talking about "pearl clutching" over things like the idea that -- gasp! -- a gay couple should have the same rights as a heterosexual couple (to give just one of many examples of changes that most older people, including myself, HAVE accepted). Most of us do accept that many things that were considered wrong just 75 years ago are now "no big deal", and speaking for myself, I am not in any kind of distress over these kinds of changes -- or at least not the very great majority of them!
The point I was making in my OP was that, in my opinion, we are in the process of losing the freedoms that generations of Americans have taken for granted for over 200 years (such as the ability to express non-violent opinions with fear of being labeled a "domestic terrorist") -- and that DOES bother me. IF we actually do lose those freedoms, that WOULD be a catastrophe, I think. But maybe I am just a spoiled and entitled Boomer -- or at least that seems to be the opinion of some posters. Oh, well. Btw, you will note that I said, "for over 200 years", and women did not have a legal "right" to an abortion in 1800. (I am pro-choice, btw, but I am talking about rights that I think most Americans have taken for granted since the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution, and the right to an abortion was not part of that.)
However, if a loss of freedoms is unimportant to the younger generation, then I can only shake my head. And if that makes me an out-of-touch curmudgeon, well, then, I guess I'm guilty.
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