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Old 06-30-2022, 06:18 PM
 
1,334 posts, read 462,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
The point you're trying to make has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of the thread.

Of course Canadians travel south for the winter because of the climate. They choose the southern U.S. due to common language and convenience of travel choices AND not shoveling the driveway/sidewalk daily or having to constantly drive in slippery conditions among a host of other reasons NOT associated with any health or medical concerns. Gotta say, it has been my experience that for anything short of a heart attack, most Canadians will simply beat feet back to Canada if getting ill with something that will result in extended medical care. The common cold etc., - we go to a nearby clinic and pay up front for a script just as most Americans would.

Summation; as regards snowbirds from Canada - they are primarily there for reasons of climate and not to obtain any medical care they can obtain fully paid for at home.

There is no "residency status" concern for Canadians OR Americans travelling to either country for a term of less than 180 days in one 365 day period.

You must not be aware that the U.S. and Canada share, if allowed entry, an "assumed" visitor visa of 180 days. Taxation does not come into it unless you stay longer than an American formula that covers your stay over three consecutive years totaling more than 163 days BUT, forestalling any complications due to that formula impacting you, all you need do is fill out the 8840 form in advance of your stays stipulating you have a closer connection to Canada in the form of taxes paid properties owned, utility services paid, Canadian bank accounts etc., et-voila; American taxation is not then of a concern.

The meandering off topic this thread took that you were adamantly going on about was far more Canadians per-capita seek medical care in the U.S. than Americans go outbound for their care. That's wrong. We're not stupid. If seeking a butt lift, tummy tuck or dental stuff we'll go to the same places Americans do - Mexico, India, Sri Lanka, Thailand where they provide concierge service and every bit as good medical expertise as the U.S. but at probably less than a third of the cost. There are hundreds of agencies in the U.S. set up for the express purpose of providing Americans complete travel arrangements to any number of medical care facilities in foreign countries. A simple google would prove my point.

Now let's see how many such org's exist to provide Canadians, whose medical care is free at point of service, a similar arrangement.
It has everything to do with the topic. Senior citizens experience a heightened vulnerability to inclement weather due to the nature of their body's waning ability to safeguard against the elements as noted previously. If they weren't looking for environments that would provide a conducive atmosphere that's less strenuous on their anatomy they wouldn't be migrating to warmer climates. I suppose if it were to fall under a designation the closest one would be ecotherapy as it applies to physical and possibly in some cases mental health as well since harsh northerly environments can take a mental toll on some people as well for whatever reason. If they wanted to simply reap the benefits of lower prices and taxation policies then some of the aforementioned locations would be their destinations or perhaps some place that's not as sociopolitically disparate as Canada like the Great Lake states compared to some place like Florida or Arizona. But that's not case and the intended destinations for the bulk of these people proves that. If it's not somewhere in the United States which ease of cultural interactivity makes for a more convenient experience as you pointed out then it's some other more equatorially proximate location such as Latin America or the Carribbean. The place of interest for them doesn't have to be the United States for their motivation to exist.

A number of these Canadian snowbirds statistically remain in the United States for periods of time up to 6 months. In terms of the amount of days that's 182 as you pointed out. Strictly speaking they could fly under the radar and avoid being branded 'permanent residents' though I suspect a good amount probably do file taxes, particularly the ones who may have property somewhere in the US. As a nonresident alien though any money they make in the United States is subject to tax deductions through the ECI and FDAP policies. Doesn't matter if they avoid the technicalities of status, susceptible taxation is still a thing.

Approximately 210,000 Americans left the country for procedures back in 2020. It varies from year to year though. You could chalk that fractional statistic down to the lockdowns though. Going back a year previously it was 780,000. Noticeable but you would think it was countless millions wading through the waters of the Rio Grande to reach the much vaunted healthcare facilities of Mexico or some other nation. You keep vending the Canadian healthcare system but really it neglects the high cost in expenditures which seems to prompt a number of your citizens to pursue economic havens, be it on a temporary or permanent basis. Commendable for what it provides to citizens but it's a motivating condition of the snowbird mentality; one where they seem to enjoy having their cake and eating it at the same time.

 
Old 06-30-2022, 06:38 PM
 
22,923 posts, read 15,377,500 times
Reputation: 16962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pryvete View Post
It has everything to do with the topic. Senior citizens experience a heightened vulnerability to inclement weather due to the nature of their body's waning ability to safeguard against the elements as noted previously. If they weren't looking for environments that would provide a conducive atmosphere that's less strenuous on their anatomy they wouldn't be migrating to warmer climates. I suppose if it were to fall under a designation the closest one would be ecotherapy as it applies to physical and possibly in some cases mental health as well since harsh northerly environments can take a mental toll on some people as well for whatever reason. If they wanted to simply reap the benefits of lower prices and taxation policies then some of the aforementioned locations would be their destinations or perhaps some place that's not as sociopolitically disparate as Canada like the Great Lake states compared to some place like Florida or Arizona. But that's not case and the intended destinations for the bulk of these people proves that. If it's not somewhere in the United States which ease of cultural interactivity makes for a more convenient experience as you pointed out then it's some other more equatorially proximate location such as Latin America or the Carribbean. The place of interest for them doesn't have to be the United States for their motivation to exist.

A number of these Canadian snowbirds statistically remain in the United States for periods of time up to 6 months. In terms of the amount of days that's 182 as you pointed out. Strictly speaking they could fly under the radar and avoid being branded 'permanent residents' though I suspect a good amount probably do file taxes, particularly the ones who may have property somewhere in the US. As a nonresident alien though any money they make in the United States is subject to tax deductions through the ECI and FDAP policies. Doesn't matter if they avoid the technicalities of status, susceptible taxation is still a thing.

Approximately 210,000 Americans left the country for procedures back in 2020. It varies from year to year though. You could chalk that fractional statistic down to the lockdowns though. Going back a year previously it was 780,000. Noticeable but you would think it was countless millions wading through the waters of the Rio Grande to reach the much vaunted healthcare facilities of Mexico or some other nation. You keep vending the Canadian healthcare system but really it neglects the high cost in expenditures which seems to prompt a number of your citizens to pursue economic havens, be it on a temporary or permanent basis. Commendable for what it provides to citizens but it's a motivating condition of the snowbird mentality; one where they seem to enjoy having their cake and eating it at the same time.
So what has all of that got to do with "snowbirds"? Especially of the Canadian variety who are NOT travelling to obtain medical care.

I am not vending anything! This thread is yet another started by an American with some of them jumping on and going off topic with critiquing another country's healthcare system. I would remind you of this conundrum:
https://www.npr.org/2007/11/14/16294...as-health-care

I've already shown you an American Fed. Gov link showing that prior to the pandemic MILLIONS of Americans were leaving the country for the express purpose of obtaining medical care out of country.
AGAIN: https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/page/medical-tourism "Each year, millions of US residents participate in medical tourism. Medical tourists from the United States commonly travel to Mexico and Canada, as well as countries in Central America, South America, and the Caribbean."

You have ignored the fact that agencies exist all over America for the singular purpose of arranging "medical" travel to foreign countries.

You refuse to address the fact of Americans leaving while seeking more affordable medical care versus Canadians you believe are leaving the country to obtain medical care they get free at point of service in Canada. Surely the flaw in that logic doesn't entirely escape you.
Consider: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/11/near...-the-cost.html

You make the spurious claim that ALL Snowbirds travelling south for warmer weather equate to those Americans arranging trips out of country expressly for the purpose of obtaining more affordable healthcare. That is some bizarre reasoning to say the least.

Why in heaven's name are you talking about snowbirds "flying under the radar" as having anything whatsoever to do with people seeking medical care out of country? You're all over the place on this silliness.

I am not going to waste any more time and effort on this off-topic nonsense.

Last edited by BruSan; 06-30-2022 at 06:55 PM..
 
Old 06-30-2022, 07:29 PM
 
1,334 posts, read 462,014 times
Reputation: 617
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
So what has all of that got to do with "snowbirds"? Especially of the Canadian variety who are NOT travelling to obtain medical care.

I've already shown you an American Fed. Gov link showing that prior to the pandemic MILLIONS of Americans were leaving the country for the express purpose of obtaining medical care out of country.

You have ignored the fact that agencies exist all over America for the singular purpose of arranging "medical" travel to foreign countries.

You refuse to address the fact of Americans leaving while seeking more affordable medical care versus Canadians you believe are leaving the country to obtain medical care they get free at point of service in Canada. Surely the flaw in that logic doesn't entirely escape you.
Consider: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/11/near...-the-cost.html

You make the spurious claim that ALL Snowbirds travelling south for warmer weather equate to those Americans arranging trips out of country expressly for the purpose of obtaining more affordable healthcare. That is some bizarre reasoning to say the least.

AGAIN: https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/page/medical-tourism "Each year, millions of US residents participate in medical tourism. Medical tourists from the United States commonly travel to Mexico and Canada, as well as countries in Central America, South America, and the Caribbean."

Why in heaven's name are you talking about snowbirds "flying under the radar" as having anything whatsoever to do with people seeking medical care out of country? You're all over the place on this silliness.

I am not going to waste any more time and effort on this off-topic nonsense.
Because they're entering foreign nations so they're not being physically subject to the rigours of the Canadian winters. It's not a complex deduction to make based off the demographic age group comprising the bulk of them and choice of destination. Can you really not see the correlation between one's health and the environment they place themselves in or is this a matter of strict technical definitions which conveniently leaves out that titbit of information. Is this something that you're able to realise or are we now debating while ignoring motivating factors for why these foreign nationals are flocking to environments that are less hazardous on their bodies?

1.4 million left back in 2017. The link you cited doesn't stipulate the amount, just a vague quantifier of 'millions' which the American Journal of Medicine also states. It's a statistic that's been acknowledged I believe a third time now. How many more acknowledgements would you like? Regarding the crux of this topic though, the United States is numerically going to see a higher portion of its citizens pursuing other treatment centres in countries for the simple reason that its population is ten times greater than Canada's. On a percentage basis of their overall populations though the two nations have close parity with respect to outbound residents when counting snowbirds who enter foreign nations for reasons which conveniently seem to be overlooked.

Have you actually looked into the factors behind the United States' rates in healthcare costs? Pharmaceuticals, chronic disease and lifestyle. As I understand it the PMPRB sets price controls for drugs being offered to the public in Canada. America doesn't have but then it's a lot of the heavy handed red tape that exists in getting a drug to the public and the managerial middle men. You then have diseases like diabetes which are having to be treated on a regular basis bringing up the rates; a condition I admit is of America's doing. Countries like Mexico which also has universal healthcare statistically has higher rates of chronic illness which should be pointed out. Of course Obamacare prompted a dramatic increase in the premium rates too. You then, of course, have the illegal aliens residing in the US who go to the emergency room for treatment, lack the means to pay, and that increases the rates too. It is what it is and yet another circumstance that makes healthcare prohibitive. Canada is free to accept several million of the migrants if the prime minister is agreeable to it. I'd be curious to see what the socioeconomic ramifications are for that nation.
 
Old 06-30-2022, 08:10 PM
 
22,923 posts, read 15,377,500 times
Reputation: 16962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pryvete View Post
Because they're entering foreign nations so they're not being physically subject to the rigours of the Canadian winters. It's not a complex deduction to make based off the demographic age group comprising the bulk of them and choice of destination. Can you really not see the correlation between one's health and the environment they place themselves in or is this a matter of strict technical definitions which conveniently leaves out that titbit of information. Is this something that you're able to realise or are we now debating while ignoring motivating factors for why these foreign nationals are flocking to environments that are less hazardous on their bodies?

1.4 million left back in 2017. The link you cited doesn't stipulate the amount, just a vague quantifier of 'millions' which the American Journal of Medicine also states. It's a statistic that's been acknowledged I believe a third time now. How many more acknowledgements would you like? Regarding the crux of this topic though, the United States is numerically going to see a higher portion of its citizens pursuing other treatment centres in countries for the simple reason that its population is ten times greater than Canada's. On a percentage basis of their overall populations though the two nations have close parity with respect to outbound residents when counting snowbirds who enter foreign nations for reasons which conveniently seem to be overlooked.

Have you actually looked into the factors behind the United States' rates in healthcare costs? Pharmaceuticals, chronic disease and lifestyle. As I understand it the PMPRB sets price controls for drugs being offered to the public in Canada. America doesn't have but then it's a lot of the heavy handed red tape that exists in getting a drug to the public and the managerial middle men. You then have diseases like diabetes which are having to be treated on a regular basis bringing up the rates; a condition I admit is of America's doing. Countries like Mexico which also has universal healthcare statistically has higher rates of chronic illness which should be pointed out. Of course Obamacare prompted a dramatic increase in the premium rates too. You then, of course, have the illegal aliens residing in the US who go to the emergency room for treatment, lack the means to pay, and that increases the rates too. It is what it is and yet another circumstance that makes healthcare prohibitive. Canada is free to accept several million of the migrants if the prime minister is agreeable to it. I'd be curious to see what the socioeconomic ramifications are for that nation.
Just more of the same irrelevant stuff having nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of the thread.

Also continues in not addressing the CDC verified fact of Americans leaving the U.S. each year for the singular purpose of obtaining affordable healthcare out of country.

https://www.damoreinjurylaw.com/blog...ng-the-country

Canadian snowbirds you insist on equating with those Americans are NOT leaving Canada for the sole purpose of obtaining medical care. Full stop.

Last edited by BruSan; 06-30-2022 at 08:26 PM..
 
Old 06-30-2022, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Elsewhere
88,119 posts, read 83,978,350 times
Reputation: 114407
For the love of God, the snowbirds going to Florida and other sunny states during the winter are not coming down from the Arctic. I am from New Jersey. I've spent the better part of three winters in Ontario, two of them in the rural lake country where you hear a combination of wolves howling and snowmobile engines at night, and the last one in the TO suburbs.

The neighbors next to us in the house up north close up their house and go to Florida to play golf and sit on the beach from January to April. They are not doing this because they can't survive the winter. They are doing this because they are retired and can afford to rent a house in Florida and play golf and sit on the beach, same as people I know in my home state of New Jersey do. Snowfall and temps were about the same as NJ in the suburban area I'm in now, except for one long cold snap they had in Jersey that didn't hit up this way.

Up 75 miles or so north of here at the lake house, the snow gets deeper and stays longer and the ice on the lake gets about 18 inches thick, but nobody's dying from it. People are out snowmobiling, ice fishing, eating at restaurants in town, shopping at the grocery store, going to church, and so forth. The roads are plowed and the school buses get through, even when the school is 18 miles away. Older people like me and my bf who don't care for hot weather or golf traipse out in the snow, feed and photograph the wildlife, play cards and watch movies and sports on TV. We have a whole-house generator for when the power goes out and 4WD vehicles with winter tires and a guy who shows up to plow the long driveway whenever it snows.

There are lots of older people in the nearby town, even a couple of senior residence complexes. The cold is not a health hazard if you have heat and proper clothing, and the streets are not clogged with old people who keeled over because the temps dropped 20 below 0 Centigrade in January.

This is one of the dumbest conversations about Canada I've seen yet.
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Old 06-30-2022, 11:39 PM
 
Location: Alberta, Canada
3,603 posts, read 3,345,739 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
I'm unclear as to why this is still being asked repeatedly nine pages in.
If you or anybody else is interested, you can adjust how many posts per page display. Go to My Settings (top right), then click Edit Options (column on the right). Scroll down to Thread Display Options, and third item from the top will be Number of Posts to Show Per Page. Drop the menu, and select your preference.

I've set mine to 40 posts per page (the maximum allowed), so your remark about "nine pages in" is a bit confusing, but then I remember that everybody might not know how to set the number of posts per page. For me, this thread has only gone under three pages. I find it much more easier to follow a thread's train of thought with 40 posts per page, than turning the page every ten posts. Not sure if others knew this, so I thought I'd share.

Okay, sorry for the hijack. Let's get back to Trudeau, Canada, and American women seeking Canadian abortions.

Last edited by ChevySpoons; 07-01-2022 at 12:52 AM..
 
Old 07-01-2022, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Elsewhere
88,119 posts, read 83,978,350 times
Reputation: 114407
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post
If you or anybody else is interested, you can adjust how many posts per page display. Go to My Settings (top right), then click Edit Options (column on the right). Scroll down to Thread Display Options, and third item from the top will be Number of Posts to Show Per Page. Drop the menu, and select your preference.

I've set mine to 40 posts per page (the maximum allowed), so your remark about "nine pages in" is a bit confusing, but then I remember that everybody might not know how to set the number of posts per page. For me, this thread has only gone under three pages. I find it much more easier to follow a thread's train of thought with 40 posts per page, than turning the page every ten posts. Not sure if others knew this, so I thought I'd share.

Okay, sorry for the hijack. Let's get back to Trudeau, Canada, and American women seeking Canadian abortions.
It's OK. I know about the page settings, but I've never tried changing them. Thank you for the reminder that my reference might not make sense to everyone else.
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Old 07-01-2022, 09:46 AM
 
22,923 posts, read 15,377,500 times
Reputation: 16962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
For the love of God, the snowbirds going to Florida and other sunny states during the winter are not coming down from the Arctic. I am from New Jersey. I've spent the better part of three winters in Ontario, two of them in the rural lake country where you hear a combination of wolves howling and snowmobile engines at night, and the last one in the TO suburbs.

The neighbors next to us in the house up north close up their house and go to Florida to play golf and sit on the beach from January to April. They are not doing this because they can't survive the winter. They are doing this because they are retired and can afford to rent a house in Florida and play golf and sit on the beach, same as people I know in my home state of New Jersey do. Snowfall and temps were about the same as NJ in the suburban area I'm in now, except for one long cold snap they had in Jersey that didn't hit up this way.

Up 75 miles or so north of here at the lake house, the snow gets deeper and stays longer and the ice on the lake gets about 18 inches thick, but nobody's dying from it. People are out snowmobiling, ice fishing, eating at restaurants in town, shopping at the grocery store, going to church, and so forth. The roads are plowed and the school buses get through, even when the school is 18 miles away. Older people like me and my bf who don't care for hot weather or golf traipse out in the snow, feed and photograph the wildlife, play cards and watch movies and sports on TV. We have a whole-house generator for when the power goes out and 4WD vehicles with winter tires and a guy who shows up to plow the long driveway whenever it snows.

There are lots of older people in the nearby town, even a couple of senior residence complexes. The cold is not a health hazard if you have heat and proper clothing, and the streets are not clogged with old people who keeled over because the temps dropped 20 below 0 Centigrade in January.

This is one of the dumbest conversations about Canada I've seen yet.
It is also completely at odds with the paradox of Americans for decades owning cottages in the Kawartha Lake district patterning their routine doctor's visits and other medical procedures for those summer months when they were at their cottages in Ontario. Our American neighbour on the Burnt River of Fenlon Falls area once bragged to my father that he and his wife enjoyed their "free" Canadian Healthcare which resulted in my dad grabbing him by his lapels and threatening to scrub the underside of his dock with him. They moved.

For decades all you needed to access OHIP in Ontario was an address and the little red stripe health card issued to each Ontario resident on the strength of that address and perhaps a copy of property tax stub. Back in the mid nineties when this became a big issue, a study was commissioned to determine the depth and breadth of this fraud.
https://www.nytimes.com/1993/12/20/w...in-canada.html
"A report prepared for Ontario's Health Minister indicated that from August 1992 to February 1993, 60,000 medical claims had been made on behalf of patients who held American drivers' licenses. The total number of improper claims in Ontario was estimated at 600,000."

That was just in one province!

These threads that are started for the purpose of implying an inferiority of system based upon the falsehood of all Canadians who go south are looking for their healthcare, perhaps even "flying under the radar" to obtain it fraudulently, completely ignores some Americans having done that for decades in Canada in ALL provinces to the tune of hundreds of thousands of them every year with an unfathomable cost to the Canadian taxpayer and subsequent improvements to their provincial plans.

Sarah Palin once boasted of her father taking them Across the border from Alaska to Whitehorse for their routine family healthcare.

Who knows how many more MRI machines, hospital beds we could have had if some Americans weren't freeloading off our system for decades.

Taken in the context of Americans complaining about illegal Mexicans - Canada had their freeloading deadbeat Americans and refrained from blaming everything from increased waiting times to the price of kumquats on them.

Last edited by BruSan; 07-01-2022 at 10:07 AM..
 
Old 07-01-2022, 10:25 AM
Status: "A solution in search of a problem" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
34,509 posts, read 16,599,025 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OP title
I happen to be pro-choice. I think Trudeau would have allowed it as an exception to Covid lockdown when that was a thing.
 
Old 07-01-2022, 11:01 AM
 
25,764 posts, read 16,379,252 times
Reputation: 15944
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