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View Poll Results: Which do you prefer?
The Greater Good 15 14.71%
Individual Liberty 87 85.29%
Voters: 102. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-08-2022, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Ohio
1,884 posts, read 1,002,747 times
Reputation: 2869

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossfire600 View Post
I think the problem lies with one group asking the other group to pay their way. Nobody can deny that that’s not happening. The simplest example is over 50% of the United States pay zero taxes. 5% of the top wage earners pay what 60% of all the taxes? It’s a little out of balance don’t you think?
Don't you think the astronomical wealth inequality is a little out of balance??
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Old 07-08-2022, 04:21 PM
 
1,874 posts, read 649,757 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
We should base our laws on *both* and we do base our laws on both.

Complete lack of freedom would be actual slavery.
Complete freedom would be chaos and pretty soon, everyone's end.
Since this is about laws, if we make laws based on 'greater good', there would be NO room for individual liberty. But if we make laws protecting individual liberty there is always the potential to persuade some sacrifices for the greater good.

The moment we come into contact with each other, two or more, there is the potential for conflict and the cause of that potentiality is the selfish needs that each possess. Forcing sacrifices is easy, persuading sacrifices is not. The government is an entity that always trend towards force.
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Old 07-08-2022, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Retired in VT; previously MD & NJ
14,267 posts, read 6,956,122 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paracord View Post
Which should we base our laws on? Right now in the USA, it's mainly "Individual Liberty"

These two philosophies are generally diametrically opposed. Most people believe in one or the other.
Your poll, like any good poll, should have options for Neither and Both

Living in a society with other people has to accommodate both attitudes, depending on the situation.

And no, I do not agree that "Right now in the USA, it's mainly "Individual Liberty""

Because while some people feel that way, others are constantly pushing back for the greater good.
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Old 07-08-2022, 04:30 PM
 
26,787 posts, read 22,549,184 times
Reputation: 10038
Quote:
Originally Posted by ansible90 View Post
Your poll, like any good poll, should have options for Neither and Both

Living in a society with other people has to accommodate both attitudes, depending on the situation.

And no, I do not agree that "Right now in the USA, it's mainly "Individual Liberty""

Because while some people feel that way, others are constantly pushing back for the greater good.



If that's how American "left" feels about it, then American "left" had no business destroying these "collective" beliefs in post-Soviet Russia, while stealing the ideas from there. ( Something like the concepts of day cares, working mothers, the system of extensive public transportation and the rest.)
So before "pushing back" against the ORIGINAL ideas of American society, the ones it has been built upon, ( i.e. "individual liberty," not "collective,") think twice.
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Old 07-08-2022, 04:32 PM
 
Location: Retired in VT; previously MD & NJ
14,267 posts, read 6,956,122 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paracord View Post
This is not a choice between "complete freedom" or not.

This is a choice between "Vaccine mandates" or individual choice.

Gun control, or individual liberty.

Crackdowns on speech, or individual liberty.

Being able to drive whatever type of car one wishes, or limits based on "the collective good."

Etc.
Paying taxes so whichever car you choose will have a road to drive on -- collective good

Stopping at red lights -- collective good
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Old 07-08-2022, 04:37 PM
 
Location: Retired in VT; previously MD & NJ
14,267 posts, read 6,956,122 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paracord View Post
I'd venture to guess that the people who don't get the choices are liberals.

When you put "Individual Liberty" vs. "The Greater Good" in black and white, they can't understand that they are generally mutually exclusive.

The reason people risk their lives to come to the USA is because of "individual liberty," certainly not the collective good.
The part you don't seem to get is because we live in a world with other people, there has to be a balance between the individual wants and needs and the group's need to survive.

I think our country is based on giving individual freedom where possible. But not if the individual will upset the society.

To have total Individual Liberty would be anarchy. Nothing would ever get done or built.
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Old 07-08-2022, 04:37 PM
 
Location: The Piedmont of North Carolina
6,023 posts, read 2,846,987 times
Reputation: 7643
The "collective good" is what got millions of Jews killed in the 1940's...

The "collective good" is only as good as the person/people deciding what is "good".

Individual liberty all the way!
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Old 07-08-2022, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Tyler, TX
23,862 posts, read 24,111,507 times
Reputation: 15135
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
BOTH.

We are a society. If we want the perks of living together there needs to be some give and it can't all be about "me, me, me." (Even a four-year-old learns this just being in his own family, and having friends.)

At the same time, individuality should be supported because we are not robots. We should have our degree of privacy, and of course, freedom.

If "the individual were king" then we would have people tearing eachother apart because, MINE. MINE. MINE. I can have what I want. I can do what I want. Who are you? Not me! I get MY freedom, I want to do target practice next to a playground, I want to never pay into a system I USE every day for my own (roads, schools, police, etc.) but I want to have have have. Nope. That won't work out very well either.

I reiterate. Preschoolers know this.
You CAN NOT have both. The worldviews are wholly incompatible. Pick one. We can still have a society with government-paid-for goodies under the individual liberty model. You can't have individual liberty under the collective good model. You simply cannot. It's impossible.
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Old 07-08-2022, 04:46 PM
 
Location: So Cal
52,263 posts, read 52,686,640 times
Reputation: 52775
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Of course neither system can be "black and white."
They have combination of both in different degrees.

But the CORE beliefs of the society are still based on one or the other.
I don't know if you are agreeing with me or schooling me. I did say we're individual based in this country.
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Old 07-08-2022, 04:49 PM
 
5,956 posts, read 2,878,990 times
Reputation: 7792
Simple ; Greater Good ...China
Individual Liberty...United States of America.
Thats my interpretation.
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