Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Then please enlighten us of the solution. It seems that social democracies with a high amount of redistribution are getting better outcomes. Also in many freedom indices from conservative think tanks like Cato and Heritage.
Saying that there is only capitalism or communism is presenting a false dichotomy.
Here are the extremes:
LT/LS: Low taxes, low services
HT/HS: High taxes, high services
It is more like lower or higher, but we can leave the superlatives for the sake of brevity.
With LT/LS you keep more of your earnings and society and the government expects you to take care of your needs as you see fit. The government will have some sort of minimum safety net programs but you are expected to rely more on the charity of society to get yourself out of troubles.
With HT/HS you keep less of your earnings but now the government, not society, is expected to take care of more of your needs and troubles.
Health care is usually the number one issue that is used to persuade Americans to move towards the HT/HS model. Health care as an issue is so far ahead of all other issues, such as 'free' education or unions or paid vacation, that health care is at least one lap ahead of all other issues in the race for social changes and wealth redistribution. It is difficult to argue against health care when literally everyone is conscious of their health, even those who take extraordinary preventative measures to avoid the hospital.
Fraud, Waste, and Abuse. Corruption would fall under Fraud and Abuse. Inefficiency would fall under Waste.
With LT/LS, FWA lives more in the private sector and lesser in the government. Somehow someone in some corporation is going to pad their wallet unethically and illegally. Institutions are never perfect. Each business will have its own FWA issues you will have to deal with each of them individually as you find each instance of FWA.
With HT/HS, FWA now lives more in the government and lesser in the private sector. Somehow some bureaucrat in some institution is going to misuse their authority and power levels for personal gains, usually financial ones. FWA issues in government are often buried in layers of bureaucracies compounded by the fact that this is the government, an entity that has legal enforcement and punishment powers that corporations do not have.
The full Marxist/communist model is HT/HS but the services were neither high nor qualitative nor plentiful. We have all seen the food lines, the poor housing, and the waxy toilet paper. But American defenders of the Cubans and the Soviets pointed out the free education and health care.
Somewhere in the middle of the extremes lies compromises that we must discuss and eventually vote on. We have 50 states or 50 social laboratories. Let each state experiment with their own versions of taxes-to-services models. Stop trying to nationalize everything. If RomneyCare worked in Massachusetts, then leave it in Massachusetts. Adopt the model and modify it to suit your state's unique needs. Stop pushing it on Utah or Kansas or Florida. The EU does not have their version of ObambaCare. Each country insure its citizens in the union. The US states can do the same.
Actually, we are closer to this than you might think. Many industries look like the Baby Formula industry where 1-3 companies control the entire market and you are essentially forced to buy their product and suffer when those companies mess up.
The US has moved to more oligarchical or Cartel-like in many industries over the past 2 decades. Much of it in Food processing and delivery which I would imagine is vital to US citizens.
I agree with a few others that said either system can become very bad and it depends on Government controls set up in those countries to guide their economic system and the leaders that run them. We have seen both Capitalist states and Communist states fail.
Well, government control is exactly at least most of the problem with baby formula in The US. I read up on this some weeks ago. We have IIRC 16 manufacturing plants and 90% of the business is owned by four companies. The main reason is very simple the FDA and USDA regulate baby formula manufacturing top to bottom.........federally mandated barriers to entry are exceptional ergo not even Koch Industries will touch baby formula. Another problem is our legal system - any safety bobble and the lawyers parachute in.........smaller and medium companies don't have the pockets to survive even one bad outcome.
The irony is that you folks whining the loudest about "big corporations" don't even get that "big corporations" are a GOVERNMENT construct in the first place.
For the record, I'm no fan of big corporations. But they are less of a threat for the time being than this authoritarian government we've allowed to slither into a position of power is.
I have friends who born in the 1960s and grew up in Eastern Europe in the 1970s/1980s and never have they ever stated that communism stood for any type or form of freedom.
I have friends who born in the 1960s and grew up in Eastern Europe in the 1970s/1980s and never have they ever stated that communism stood for any type or form of freedom.
The experiences and stories of people like them are worth their weight in gold. The lies grow in darkness.
My view is largely like Roderic's (sorry, can't rep you again yet). When I was younger this question used to be summarized as freedom to vs. freedom from", meaning freedom to have the basics of existence in terms of food, education, healthcare, etc. or freedom from dictates of what to do with ones labor, money, etc. In the absence of corruption and the assumption of human perfection, both systems could work in theory. The problem is that there is corruption, or more commonly systemic abuse, and people aren't perfect and never will be. By our nature, capitalism does a better job, IMO, in recognizing and acknowledging these tendencies in humans and as such is the better way to balance our natural tendencies compared with what we'd like to think of ourselves in terms of how we care for our collective.
My view is largely like Roderic's (sorry, can't rep you again yet). When I was younger this question used to be summarized as freedom to vs. freedom from", meaning freedom to have the basics of existence in terms of food, education, healthcare, etc. or freedom from dictates of what to do with ones labor, money, etc. In the absence of corruption and the assumption of human perfection, both systems could work in theory. The problem is that there is corruption, or more commonly systemic abuse, and people aren't perfect and never will be. By our nature, capitalism does a better job, IMO, in recognizing and acknowledging these tendencies in humans and as such is the better way to balance our natural tendencies compared with what we'd like to think of ourselves in terms of how we care for our collective.
I love it when people mix our nature and political discussion together here. So stimulating. We can debate forever which system is best but one things for sure, people like change for the sake of change, so we are guaranteed something different at some future time, even if its and abysmal failure. Corporations tend to constantly change things as an example.
Status:
"Senior Conspiracy Debunker"
(set 25 days ago)
2,004 posts, read 865,188 times
Reputation: 1998
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycanmaster
Communism vs Capitalism is simply part of the controlled Hegelian dialectic.
Tyranny can exist in both systems.
Being oppressed by either Big Government or Big Business, gee what a choice lol.
The problem that I see is that we have not preserved Capitalism. Capitalism follows cheap labor. If our corporations stayed rooted in the US, all would have prosperity. Corporations flee overseas for cheap labor, tax breaks, pollution standards etc. The results are the haves and the have nots and discussions like this.
Our politicians need to get smarter. They need to give incentives to keep big business in the US where they will employ US citizens.
I have friends who born in the 1960s and grew up in Eastern Europe in the 1970s/1980s and never have they ever stated that communism stood for any type or form of freedom.
I knew a Romanian guy who was born in the 50s and ended up in a Romanian gulag in the 70s. His crime was he tried to escape Romania to join his brother, who was a Romanian student in NYC. He was caught in Yugoslavia and returned to Romania per treaty between the two nations. The horrors of his 4 year stint in that 16th century prison would blow your mind.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
