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Old 08-21-2022, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Lahaina, Hi.
6,386 posts, read 4,793,920 times
Reputation: 11316

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wee-Bey View Post
Exactly right.

Culture and a failure of nurture (parenting in general and fathering in particular) is sending our young men down the wrong path. They're becoming weak (both physically and mentally), unskilled, poorly socialized and disconnected. Boys need to work, learn skills and be accountable and obligated to others. They need physical activity and the guidance of older men who can show them through example how to channel energy, drive and aggressiveness into something that is disciplined, kind and achievement oriented. Becoming a man isn't just something you wander into by accident and age all on your own. It requires mentoring with a firm hand and tough love. Fathers, coaches, teachers, professors, bosses and even drill instructors provide this.
Agree completely!

Boys coming from the ghettos are not getting male guidance, and it shows in the continual dysfunction. Even in the fact that they often cry at the drop of a hat. Women usually cannot raise boys to men successfully.
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Old 08-21-2022, 06:05 PM
 
Location: CO/UT/AZ/NM Catch me if you can!
6,926 posts, read 6,913,805 times
Reputation: 16508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
Everyone has personas, probably more than one, and everyone's personas are to some extent fake.

Trump chooses one kind of tough guy persona. This was seen in The Apprentice when he fired people, for example. And then of course he didn't hesitate to fire people when he was president.
Excuse me if I'm not overly impressed by the deeds of an actor in a reality show. When it comes to his time as "president," he fired what seemed like zillions of people. Then he'd hire another zillion complete idiots only to fire them again the next week (or next day) and start the insanity all over again. You can't run a burger stand with that kind of chaos going on, never mind a country - especially a country like the United States.

Trump didn't indulge in all that firing of anything that moved because he was a tough guy. He fired people out of his own weakness. He simply couldn't take it if someone suggested that there might be a better way of doing things. No one on his staff or anywhere else can make even the most constructive of criticism to Donald Trump. By golly, you will pay if you do.

This is a classic trait of a weakling.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
Trump-haters make up all kinds of stories about Trump's personality. In reality, he managed his world leader job effectively. He didn't start any wars or any horrible crises. Things went relatively smoothly until covid. And no one knew how to manage covid. He obviously has as much self control as anyone.
Talk about damning someone with faint praise! I haven't started any wars myself. Do I get a lollipop? I know that those on the right want to pretend that January 6th never happened or if forced to admit that it did, you all rush to support Saint Donald and his inexcusable words and lack of action. Was sitting sequestered in the White House for hours while he watched the Insurrection on TV with a smile on his brainless little face, waving his brainless little hands in approval a sign that Trump was/is a tough guy?

What kind of man and what kind of leader watches an angry mob build a gallows and call for the hanging of his second in command and does nothing and doesn't even say anything to let his supporters know that killing Pence is not exactly the best of ideas? If you think Trump's actions that day were a show of strength or toughness, then that's one more reason that I'm glad that I will NEVER play on your team.
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Old 08-21-2022, 06:11 PM
 
Location: moved
13,609 posts, read 9,644,958 times
Reputation: 23390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone28 View Post
Trump may not be what our own personal interpretations of a so called "Tough guy" are. But he was ballsy and he had leadership qualities and said things that people could relate with. For once we had someone willing to say "America first' or "China is eating our lunch and we are letting them get away with it".
Quote:
Originally Posted by tijlover View Post
I disagree. I think he's brighter than one realizes. ...
Contrary to unregenerate left-wing opinion, Trump is not an idiot. He's not lacking in rhetorical gifts. He's a shrewd judge of what the public wants to hear. He is talented in crafting a persona that appears to impress a substantial swath of people. This isn't just manipulation, cant or forgery. He really does have a knack of sizing-up parts of the electorate, delivering what to them is a compelling message - both of what he himself appears to be, and that for which he stands. This has been very effective. It's a foolish mistake to underestimate it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
This explains why the more educated upper middle class hates hates hates Trump. He is not refined, he is a loudmouth, he speaks to the less educated classes.
This is true. I don't want to be represented by a boor and a bounder. In my mind, Trump is associated with reality TV, casinos and pro "wrestling". These are all lowbrow, jejune activities that cause me to cringe. I felt the same way about Reagan... a B-list (if that) actor and a paid spokesman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
Bob Dole was much tougher than Trump ever was. Bob Dole went and fought for his country, got wounded in combat.
But Dole was milquetoast and uninspiring. He lost to Bill Clinton. Clinton was more suave, more photogenic, more of an exciting personality. THAT - and not good ideas or solid character - is what impresses voters.

Last edited by ohio_peasant; 08-21-2022 at 06:53 PM..
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Old 08-21-2022, 06:13 PM
 
72,874 posts, read 62,362,868 times
Reputation: 21825
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil75230 View Post
I agree this is a (if not the) major reason why Trump's style is so popular with so many people, even aside from the "substance" of his positions - which is precisely the problem.

A lot - if not most - Trump supporters operate from the same old Social Darwinist warped, distorted interpretation of evolution that's been around since the mid 19th century. The gladiator match model is an extremely simplistic understanding of how evolution works. These days, its only an elementary school boy's interpretation of it.

Several reasons why "toughness is the measure of all respect-worthiness" basebrain impulse is bogus.

*Ignores the unique details that separate humans from other animals (our overall portfolio of traits that allow us to discover fire, make spears, imagine better ways of doing things -- and even make the Internet, genetic engineering, and the James Webb Space Telescope).

*Shoehorns survival rules for a Stone Age physical environment (or at latest the 1910's pre-mechanical-overall wealthy Western World's rural areas) into an Industrial Age physical environment (even rural areas in the West since 1920 had both civilians and law enforcement with telephones, radio, automobiles, elaborate laws, etc. to better hold lawbreakers accountable for their acts. Not to mention a general population's way of life that started to approach the modern type: mass education, scientific awareness, quality and knowledge of medicine, beginnings of psychology, etc.). Even this is just for century-ago industrial age technology at latest. It's even more true for today's Digital Age environment, plus the myriad WMD's it has.

*The dog-eat-dog paradigm works against even the best survivor's own best interests ("best survivors" meaning the physically strongest/best fighters, bravest, and most "animal cunning"/"street smart"). If dog-eat-dog gladiator match is the rule, then even the top 1% of 1% will have to divert mental, physical, and emotional energies watching their back and overall "sleep with one eye open" - so as to prevent people from knocking them off their pedestal at best, outright kill them at worst. The same goes even for their own children and spouse. That diverts personal energies from more productive or otherwise culturally redeeming activities. This is a lose-lose for both the "Alpha" and their society.

And this is just the warm-up of why I think Social Darwinist type nature arguments are simple-minded.
Sadly, and ironically, I think this is what some people want. Some people want the old social Darwinism to come back. I mention that this is ironic because many of the old rules would have really damaged some people. The brutish, Stone Age rules for survival would have done away with many people currently calling for such things. Many people are not in the best of health. Many people like to talk tough, but would get knocked out in a fight.

I mentioned in an earlier post that as the economy has transitioned into more brain and less brawn (some occupations are exceptions to this rule), more and more people are feeling left behind. There is alot of anger and hopelessness among some people. Trump's "tough guy" persona appealed to those who felt like having two hands and brute muscular strength would be enough to get them jobs. The economy is changing, and with that, many other things in society are changing.

Alot of inventions have furthered the progressed of people on this planet. At the same time, some people don't realize that thinking and innovation are a big part of it.

Trump's "tough guy" persona is really a jerk mentality. However, the more I think about it, the more I start thinking about individuals who take on the "tough guy" persona. One could say that society is being "feminized", in some ways. However, I don't think it's the ability to tolerate pain that isn't valued. It's that brute strength is no longer a requirement as a man to survive. Being strong is important when it comes to being in the military. However, long are the days where a man had to be brute tough or he died (in most places anyway).

Many people don't understand that the "kill or be killed"/"dog eat dog" paradigm would be to their detriment. We already have places in America where some people have to sleep with one eye open. Many people living in the ghettos of America have to be street smart or they get killed.

Another place with "dog eat dog" dynamics is prison. Prison ages people rapidly. All the stress in prison from dealing with other prisoners. Prisoners have to wonder if other inmates will kill them, or if they'll have to kill someone.

I think about this whole "tough guy" nonsense in some people. I look at some people trying to look as brute, and as thuggish as possible. I sit there and think "You're not tough. You're either angry, trying to impress women, or this is as close to true manhood as you'll get".

I remember a few years ago I was in a nice restaurant/bar (for being a nice place, the food wasn't expensive). A few women were chatting. I decided, "I'll chat a little bit as well". I had a good conversation with both women. One person at the bar wasn't happy about this. It was this one guy at the other end of the bar. He was big, muscle-bound, and had tattoos. He was talking to the two women at the bar, in kind of a braggart sort of way. He decided to make some rude comments towards me, and trying that "tough guy" stuff around me. Basically, it was that "shut up" kind of mentality. I just sat there and looked at him like he was stupid. The two women in question, who weren't happy about his behavior, stopped talking to him. He left the bar kind of angry. The bartender mentioned that said guy was kind of a jerk, and was known for that "I'm a tough guy" attitude.
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Old 08-21-2022, 06:17 PM
 
72,874 posts, read 62,362,868 times
Reputation: 21825
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant View Post


But Dole was milquetoast and uninspiring. He lost to Bill Clinton. Clinton was more suave, more photogenic, more of an exciting personality. THAT - and not good ideas or solid character - is what impresses voters.
I don't think like most people. I'll take milquetoast over a jerk any day of the week. I know some of Bob Dole's record. He seems like a solid guy to me. I would be far more inspired to vote for Dole than for Trump (one reason I voted for Gary Johnson in 2016). Trump wasn't suave. His appeal was that "tough guy" persona. It didn't appeal to me though.
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Old 08-21-2022, 06:32 PM
 
72,874 posts, read 62,362,868 times
Reputation: 21825
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Rambler View Post
Excuse me if I'm not overly impressed by the deeds of an actor in a reality show. When it comes to his time as "president," he fired what seemed like zillions of people. Then he'd hire another zillion complete idiots only to fire them again the next week (or next day) and start the insanity all over again. You can't run a burger stand with that kind of chaos going on, never mind a country - especially a country like the United States.

Trump didn't indulge in all that firing of anything that moved because he was a tough guy. He fired people out of his own weakness. He simply couldn't take it if someone suggested that there might be a better way of doing things. No one on his staff or anywhere else can make even the most constructive of criticism to Donald Trump. By golly, you will pay if you do.

This is a classic trait of a weakling.
When I look at former President Trump, I feel like I'm looking at George Steinbrenner, former owner of the New York Yankees. For the life of me, I don't get how the Yankees' players could tolerate playing under such unstable leadership. Steinbrenner would frequently fire people over and over, due to petty stuff. He might have gotten the Yankees back to respectability (World Championships in 1977 and 1978). However, he created an atmosphere of instability with all of his serial firings, unstable work environment, and just general petulance. According to Steinbrenner himself, he hit some Dodgers fans during the 1981 World Series because they insulted the Yankees. That man was petty enough to pay some people to dig up dirt of then-Yankee Dave Winfield.



Quote:
Talk about damning someone with faint praise! I haven't started any wars myself. Do I get a lollipop? I know that those on the right want to pretend that January 6th never happened or if forced to admit that it did, you all rush to support Saint Donald and his inexcusable words and lack of action. Was sitting sequestered in the White House for hours while he watched the Insurrection on TV with a smile on his brainless little face, waving his brainless little hands in approval a sign that Trump was/is a tough guy?

What kind of man and what kind of leader watches an angry mob build a gallows and call for the hanging of his second in command and does nothing and doesn't even say anything to let his supporters know that killing Pence is not exactly the best of ideas? If you think Trump's actions that day were a show of strength or toughness, then that's one more reason that I'm glad that I will NEVER play on your team.
Truth is, some people want someone like Trump, who will encourage people to do things like be ruffians. Some people want a leader who is a jerk, who creates instability for anyone who isn't in agreement with him.
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Old 08-21-2022, 06:39 PM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
10,939 posts, read 5,914,844 times
Reputation: 5635
I've been called tough. In fact, the exact words were; "tough old goat" ..... Not sure how to take that.

No mention of being masculine though.
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Old 08-21-2022, 06:42 PM
 
Location: SF/Mill Valley
8,565 posts, read 3,791,226 times
Reputation: 5866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
Masculine toughness
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
Most violent crimes are committed by young males, around age 18 to 34 or so. But males of any age tend to have more of an interest in violence than females.
While the majority of violent crimes are committed by men, I don’t agree it’s relative to (what you perceive as) ‘masculine toughness’. In fact, one could easily argue the common reasons for such i.e. anger/rage, revenge, jealousy, greed or sadism are actually seen as psychological weakness/unwellness - whether present in men or women. Actually, there’s not that much of a divide between the sexes in that regard.

That said, physical strength certainly plays a part i.e. women aren’t likely to strangle or overpower a man with a knife, but they are more likely to use poison (or manipulate/hire a man to commit the crime for them).

Last edited by CorporateCowboy; 08-21-2022 at 07:04 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 08-21-2022, 07:24 PM
 
Location: Southern MN
11,985 posts, read 8,320,397 times
Reputation: 44613
Too bad we had to drag Trump into the discussion as I think it detracts from a very real problem. That has been a steady decline in testosterone levels in men all over the world and very prominently in the United States. And it is a genuine and observable issue of concern.

"Only this week (March 2021), leading Epidemiologist Shanna Swan published a book outlining the serious global decline in male fertility stating that;

'The current state of reproductive affairs can’t continue much longer without threatening human survival” she writes in Count Down.'

It comes after a study she co-authored in 2017 found that sperm counts in the west had plummeted by 59% between 1973 and 2011. Swan concluded that testosterone and sperm health are presenting major public health issues and should be treated as such." https://myparla.com/decreasing-testosterone-levels/

Causal factors appear to be in conjunction with the attempt at social conditioning rather than a result of. Some of those possible causal factors are "increased obesity/BMI, assay variations, diet/phytoestrogens, declined exercise and physical activity, fat percentage, marijuana use, and environmental toxins."

I think it's possible that with healthier bodies men would be less susceptible to social engineering.
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Old 08-21-2022, 07:39 PM
 
Location: A Nation Possessed
25,480 posts, read 18,612,470 times
Reputation: 22374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
... He didn't start any wars or any horrible crises...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Rambler View Post
I know that those on the right want to pretend that January 6th never happened...
Jesus. You guys are getting more and more irrational.

Now J6 was a war.

First it was an insurrection... until the (leftist) government declared that it wasn't (which it wasn't). Now you're turning up the burner on that stove. You're calling it a war. What will you jump to next? Armageddon? The destruction of the galaxy? The universe?

In reality the whole thing paled compared to what happened the previous summer. It was barely a blip on the radar. Until you guys stop saying that the "Summer of Love" was nothing, I'm not going to stop saying J6 was nothing.
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