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The women you are asking won't answer this because they firmly believe that a man should have no opinion or conviction, but do WHATEVER they (the women) ask them to do. Pay child support? Sure! Applaud the abortion? Of course! Your choice, dear.
Assuming that women who are child-bearing age today were born after 1980, this is not a scenario they have ever lived in. How old are you, and what country are you from, that you recall "laws that kept women from working other in the home"?
You don't have to have lived under said laws to adopt the cultural mindset they created.
That stuff is passed down generation to generation. Women learn from their mothers/aunts/grandmothers; plenty of women still have a life plan that basically boils down to finding a man to take care of them and/or their children.
If not why are men here complaining about women like that?
You can't, at least not in our state. When I divorced, I told my lawyer not to include any claims for child support because I knew he wouldn't pay anything anyway. My lawyer told me I do not have the right or ability to do that. The state requires the child support on behalf of the child. So he was required to pay, and he rarely did anyway, as expected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus
And how was that for your daughter in the long run do you think MQ?
I mean it could have been good, neutral, detrimental depending on lots of factors.
I find this a fascinating topic.
Here is how it worked out.
When we went to court the day of the divorce, he whined to the judge that he was unemployed. She said too bad so sad, you pay $50 a week until you get a job, and then we can revisit the child support. To me, we were wasting our time. But whatever.
Eventually, however, he was able to stay clean and sober enough--not actually clean and sober, mind you, but ENOUGH (actually he ditched the coke and the pills and went back to just drinking) to get a good job, the very type of job I had suggested he do when we were married. He became a building super and got a free apartment. Every so often, he would deign to toss me a $100 bill with the admonition that "you'd better be writing this down." But he had lots of stories and excuses as to why he couldn't pay regularly. (He's also a gambler.) I did not take it back to court and pursue it because for the first time in her life, my daughter had a father who was taking an interest in her. He started going to parent-teacher conferences with me, her school concerts, plays, etc., things he did not do before we got divorced. I feared that dragging him back to court would ruin that.
When she hit around 12 and 13, she outgrew the weekend trips to the zoo and whatnot and wanted to go to the mall with Dad. And she asked for clothes, and she asked for shoes, and she wanted this and that for her room, and while he absolutely hated the idea of giving me child support because that felt like he was giving ME money, he would take her shopping and buy her clothing and whatnot. That worked for me. I did ask for half the cost not covered by insurance for her braces, and when she was 16, I went through my lawyer to get the correct amount of child support he should have been paying, because at that point, I really needed it. He got his own lawyer and fought it, we settled on an amount, and in the end, that child support I got from the time she was 16 until she was 18 came out to just about what I paid the lawyer. So again, waste of time.
But she had, and still has, a relationship with her father, and that was worth more than money.
The large majority of men I know will support what the woman wants to do, at least when they're in a relationship.
So it's not either or.
It's whatever is the right choice for them both (ideally) or for the woman (as she's the one who gives birth) because he understands dictating that she has his baby whether she's willing to or not is not an option.
Some people come to an understanding that while they may not want to be together in a LTR, if the child is born the man can support either financially and/or as a co parent that doesn't live with the child.
There are all sorts of in between scenarios that adults arrange between themselves.
Sometimes, if the hookup was a one night stand with a stranger, the woman won't even discuss a resulting pregnancy with the man either way.
Sometimes, a woman who wants to keep the child but has no relationship with the father will agree that if he stays out of it, she'll raise the child with out his help and he will not pay but will give up his rights to see or contact the child.
Your black and white world doesn't exist. So no need to keep badgering people with your fallacious dichotomies.
Some of us are trying to have a conversation.
I know 2 women who have done that. All they do is complain about how tough they have it and how the fathers were deadbeats. ??? It was THEIR CHOICE!!!
Do women support the decisions of the men? No? Why not?
Are men supposed to behave like toddlers, following the directions of their 'women'? Not very enlightened.
Abortion IS a black and white issue. Not even a hint of gray. The baby is alive or the baby is dead. You are either for killing or against killing. Pretty simple.
As long as women are LEGALLY able to have abortions without a man's consent, a man should LEGALLY be about to opt out of paying for a child he does not want.
But my personal opinions have noting to do with the legalities. Those are the bits and pieces that pro abortionists flutter and peck at. My personal opinions are: Abortion is wrong. Walking away from the responsibility of the child is wrong.
But if woman can get LEGALLY get abortions without a man's consent, a man should LEGALLY be able to walk way without a woman's consent.
Absolute logic.
.
As a woman, I absolutely agree with this.
I just want to add, I won't get an abortion, it's wrong for me. I dont care what other women do to their body as long as I don't have to pay for the stupid decisions they make.
I just want to add, I won't get an abortion, it's wrong for me. I dont care what other women do to their body as long as I don't have to pay for the stupid decisions they make.
Nope. Me either. It's not a well, if it were this situation ... yeah. No. Hard no. Like NEVER, no.
Because abortion is wrong. No other way around it.
I know 2 women who have done that. All they do is complain about how tough they have it and how the fathers were deadbeats. ??? It was THEIR CHOICE!!!
Do women support the decisions of the men? No? Why not?
Are men supposed to behave like toddlers, following the directions of their 'women'? Not very enlightened.
Abortion IS a black and white issue. Not even a hint of gray. The baby is alive or the baby is dead. You are either for killing or against killing. Pretty simple.
The men are not going to be the ones having an 8lb baby pulled out their vagina, in some cases with catastrophic injury up to and including death.
That is the reality of the situation.
No one except the person that's potentially happening to can consent to it.
Childbirth can be a wonderful experience, but it can also be a brutal, live threatening, debilitating, dangerous affair.
Sometimes, the baby gets stuck with its head out and shoulders wedged. Would you like to know how they treat that?
No one can consent to childbirth EXCEPT THE PREGNANT PERSON.
The end.
Now, having said that, we also acknowledge that there is another person involved in making that baby and that it would be good to find a solution if there's a problem that benefits or at the very least doesn't disadvantage ALL THREE OF THEM.
The men are not going to be the ones having an 8lb baby pulled out their vagina, in some cases with catastrophic injury up to and including death.
That is the reality of the situation.
No one except the person that's potentially happening to can consent to it.
Childbirth can be a wonderful experience, but it can also be a brutal, live threatening, debilitating, dangerous affair.
Sometimes, the baby gets stuck with its head out and shoulders wedged. Would you like to know how they treat that?
No one can consent to childbirth EXCEPT THE PREGNANT PERSON.
The end.
Now, having said that, we also acknowledge that there is another person involved in making that baby and that it would be good to find a solution if there's a problem that benefits or at the very least doesn't disadvantage ALL THREE OF THEM.
Oh brother! Women overwhelmingly have safe births and healthy babies. Talk about grasping at straws!
I see, so if a human wants to kill another human they should be able to do so without the consent of the person they want to kill? Only the killer's wants and needs count?
This whole thread is predicated on the assumption that we already know what the laws are. If we didn't, this conversation would be pointless.
The discussion is whether it is time for reform.
If you personally know both men and women that have terminated their parental rights, and more relevant to the discussion, their financial duties, then they are the exception, not the norm. Most women are not going to sign off on the man not paying child support, so no, it is not an option.
Reform would require lots of law changes to allow men to walk away from financially supporting a child born out of wedlock.
I don't see anyone who is going to take up that mantle in today's political climate.
Republicans have already shot themselves in the foot over the abortion issue. They are now busy proposing or claiming they intend to propose all sorts of goodies for women and their children to support them.
I don't see Democrats proposing something like this that most will see as not in the best interests of women or children.
Seems like a non starter.
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