Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-02-2022, 12:12 PM
 
9,637 posts, read 4,483,577 times
Reputation: 7366

Advertisements

Getting into medical school is one thing but those students still have to get licensed and be insurable for themselves and hospital/employer. Also pass a probationary period.

What will happen dropouts will increase then the dropouts will be screaming for special consideration.

I'd rather have a good nurse or practitioner provide care at this point. It's already hard enough to find good doctors. The industry is/has been in decline and will continue to be so.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-02-2022, 12:18 PM
 
899 posts, read 534,773 times
Reputation: 2184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post

In the end we'll have to abandon some of the noble lies that make America America, and accept that class is WAY more permanent than anyone wants to admit, and some groups stay at the top, however you want to slice it, while other groups are stuck at the bottom.
Across American history, millions and millions did leave behind poverty and build a better life for themselves. Proclaiming some kind of noble lie only pretended this was possible is, well, another lie.

The Founding Fathers never proclaimed a country where all people were equal in outcome nor did they desire a country where all people should become equal in outcome. If anything, they knew it was impossible, let alone undesirable. They knew mankind was highly diverse in capabilities. Their goal was equal application of the law, the understanding that all men were equal in the eye of the law and in political rights, and a high degree of personal freedom allowing every man to make the most of his own capabilities.

By large, they did help create a country that came closer than just about any other place in making that happen and it was only emulating American practices that other Western countries caught up.

The idea that there should be equal outcomes among groups is something that has never really manifested itself in American history until recent years. It's an outgrowth of the persistent failure of black Americans to achieve comparable economic footing with white Americans (although as it is repeatedly noted, this ideology is strangely silent on the successes of other non white groups, namely Asians and South Asians, who outperform white Americans, and it is also selective in describing groups of people by ignoring huge disparities within racial groups).

The significant ideological retreat from merit, which was one of the great American principles, that people should be judged by their own accomplishments and capabilities rather than religion or family or ethnicity, and now race, is certainly testing the concept of America like nothing ever since the Civil War. Ironically, the war was fought over an idea, whether the US would be a country with different standards for different groups of people, and yet despite the victors, we are ironically retreating to just a different version of the arguments originally put forward by the slaveowners.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-02-2022, 01:10 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
42,288 posts, read 17,626,342 times
Reputation: 34486
Quote:
Originally Posted by anononcty View Post
Getting into medical school is one thing but those students still have to get licensed and be insurable for themselves and hospital/employer. Also pass a probationary period.

What will happen dropouts will increase then the dropouts will be screaming for special consideration.

I'd rather have a good nurse or practitioner provide care at this point. It's already hard enough to find good doctors. The industry is/has been in decline and will continue to be so.
They did it for the teacher certification tests....when too many failed they just made the tests easier and/or eliminated some.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-02-2022, 01:13 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
42,288 posts, read 17,626,342 times
Reputation: 34486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoonose View Post
Considering the same programs existed when I went to med school in 1972, I'd say that they must be 'here to stay'.
Well now those programs are on steroids.

From the OP's link:

In 2020, the American Medical Association (AMA) and the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) said systemic racism was to blame for the disparities between white and black patients.

They then announced a three-year plan in 2021 to 'aggressively push forward' policy to encourage people of color to enter the medical profession.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-02-2022, 01:29 PM
 
5,076 posts, read 2,285,245 times
Reputation: 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
Just another right wing dude sharing right wing talking points. From what I read about the guy we should probably meet him halfway on this issue.

We probably shouldn't have shut minorities out of the system for so long. While I agree with the righties to an extent on this issue, I think some minorities are playing some catch up here. Hopefully this won't be an issue in another couple of generations.
This doesn't make sense on its face. You say that some minorities are playing catch up (meaning that they don't have the standard qualifications to get into medical school); you also claim that these same people were shut out of the system. But if they didn't have the standard qualifications, how could they have been unfairly shut out?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-02-2022, 01:36 PM
 
18,783 posts, read 8,387,286 times
Reputation: 4124
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
Well now those programs are on steroids.

From the OP's link:

In 2020, the American Medical Association (AMA) and the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) said systemic racism was to blame for the disparities between white and black patients.

They then announced a three-year plan in 2021 to 'aggressively push forward' policy to encourage people of color to enter the medical profession.
Same thing we had back in the '70's. A large Black contingent, most of whom were not prepared well enough. The main idea was to have them serve our inner city communities. I have no idea how that worked out.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-02-2022, 01:41 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
42,288 posts, read 17,626,342 times
Reputation: 34486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoonose View Post
Same thing we had back in the '70's. A large Black contingent, most of whom were not prepared well enough. The main idea was to have them serve our inner city communities. I have no idea how that worked out.
So from the 70's until today....50 years..the AMA still claims they have "systemic racism" ????

Maybe one day the people in charge will admit that everyone is NOT the same.

We all have equal opportunity but we don't all have equal outcomes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-02-2022, 01:49 PM
 
18,783 posts, read 8,387,286 times
Reputation: 4124
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
So from the 70's until today....50 years..the AMA still claims they have "systemic racism" ????

Maybe one day the people in charge will admit that everyone is NOT the same.

We all have equal opportunity but we don't all have equal outcomes.
My daughter's med school 40 years after mine was full of qualified people of color and heritage.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-02-2022, 02:16 PM
 
19,569 posts, read 17,845,257 times
Reputation: 17100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
At some point we're going to have to grab the bull by the horns and admit that not all people or groups are equal, and that those words in the Declaration of Independence were hollow (as if the slaves owned by the writers didn't underline that already), and that the politics of modernity are just as riven with contradictions and falsehoods as premodern beliefs.

Because by arguing against affirmative action you are arguing for permanent class differences between various groups. By arguing for affirmative action you are arguing for permanent group-based discrimination. That's the painful reality. No option here is good, and the problem won't just go away.

You can argue that equal processes are the goal not equal outcomes. That's a pretty heady argument to make to the person stuck in generational poverty. They only see that others have more and will always have more.

In the end we'll have to abandon some of the noble lies that make America America, and accept that class is WAY more permanent than anyone wants to admit, and some groups stay at the top, however you want to slice it, while other groups are stuck at the bottom.

In any case, even if you could convince all groups to intermarry such that everyone blended and became similar and there were no more visible group differences, there would still be class at the individual level and those at the bottom would find a new identity to rally around.

Bottom line nature requires both diversity and selection to proceed. Everyone can't be the same, which is how everyone ends up the same. Hierarchy is part of nature, and it's hubristic to think we can abolish it because we find it repugnant.
That's an excellent set of observations. However, I don't agree at least not precisely. IMO we could even the playing field in terms of real opportunity by fixing K-12 education. Somehow, someway we must fight through leftwing CRT/outcome leveling efforts by better preparing Black and Brown kids for trade, college and professional success.

Math is not racist, well disciplined classrooms are not racist, expecting correct answers is not racist.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-02-2022, 02:17 PM
 
19,569 posts, read 17,845,257 times
Reputation: 17100
Quote:
Originally Posted by anononcty View Post
Getting into medical school is one thing but those students still have to get licensed and be insurable for themselves and hospital/employer. Also pass a probationary period.

What will happen dropouts will increase then the dropouts will be screaming for special consideration.
All of that has been going for years.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top