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Old 01-20-2023, 02:09 AM
 
1,792 posts, read 606,849 times
Reputation: 876

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Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Yankee View Post
I like how you tie the "left" to embracing the Chinese form of government when all we see is the right embracing authoritarian style of leadership with no questioning of their actions or questioning what they say. You blame "tech" and "media" all while using them to create an echo chamber to get the rights message across but you can't blame either one when fearless leader is posting his thoughts directly on it so the only one to blame is the poster.

As an outsider the designer found this support appealing, unlike the US model where you have a child your given a few days supplies and out the door you go, your on your own.
Yes, I have no problems associating or even attaching the collective American Left to China or the Chinese model of governance.

I fled communism in 1975, and when I said 'fled' I mean the true meaning of the word that includes fear, poverty, and uncertainty. In the 48 yrs living in the US, from refugee to veteran status, I see the American Left consistently enamored of any country that practices any version of Marxism. The most prominent was the Soviet Union, of course. Bernie Sanders admired the Soviets. But now that the Soviet Union is gone, it is China, except that China proved to be more intelligent, and no less brutal, than the Soviets in controlling their people.

So tell us...
Kaye acknowledged the ways in which the Chinese Communist Party would insert itself into family life, be it by controlling what her kids ate or by dictating the number of hours they should sleep at night.

'In China, government co-parenting begins in the womb,' she wrote, referring to the limits on how many children parents were allowed, which have since been relaxed.

She added that not long after enrolling her kids in state-run schools it started controlling how they should live.
Who, meaning which political party, would be more likely to be attracted to what Heather Kaye so admired? Am not asking about the party's official platform. Am asking about individual members. Am not asking if YOU personally know anyone in your circle who would be so attracted. Am asking if you are willing to be honest enough to make a critical examination of the American Left. Heather Kaye is not merely admiring the Chinese model of individual governance, she WELCOMES it, and now, since she had to leave China due to COVID, she longs for that level of governmental intrusion. For the 48 yrs living in the US, I have yet to meet any conservative, Republican, or Libertarian with the same mindset. But I met many American Leftists, Marxists, Liberals, Progressives, and Democrats who would love to have similar models of such governance in the US. Not exactly the same, just similar enough that if possible, the US and China would be brothers.
Kaye claimed she was also grateful for the way surrendering parts of their children's lives to the state reduced burdens on her and her husband - and wished American parents might see the value in doing the same.
Heather Kaye is not merely thankful but actually grateful that there was such State intrusion into her personal life. We can be greater than %50 certain that her husband George is of the same mind.
Kaye saw merit in Chinese censorship too. 'Raising kids in China was a plus in other ways — such as the heavy censorship,' she wrote.

The government imposed limits on how much time her kids could spend playing video games and it saved them from accessing problematic material on the internet.

Not only that, the state's supervision would keep her daughters safe as they navigated the sprawling but relatively safe Shanghai subway.
Notice Heather Kaye said nothing about her as an adult and censorship. Why not? The CPC censors everyone regardless of age, but Heather Kaye misled the readers by focusing on children. Of course, children deserves heavy censorship. Duh. Then as they get older, the censorship eases as how we do it. Finally, as an adult, the person essentially has none. But Heather Kaye misled the readers by saying nothing about how China censored her and her husband, as how the CPC censors the other one billion+ Chinese.

When our company hosted some Intel engineers from Dalian, China, for training, I made friends with a few of them. None of them knew the details of Tiananmen Square as we expected them to be, after all, the event happened in public in the middle of the capital. I loaned one guy a few of my books about China and Tiananmen Square and he read them all, admitting that most Chinese know at best 1/2 of what Americans could know. Most American Left would love to have that kind of power over the American people, and I have no problems saying that.
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Old 01-20-2023, 02:17 AM
 
32,905 posts, read 12,203,630 times
Reputation: 14679
Quote:
Originally Posted by sholomar View Post
Thing is, China is actually spiral dynamics stage red/blue with some orange, it's really a socially conservative culture, probably not one the average leftist would want to live in. They just like to romanticize about things different from what they have, and things they don't really understand. They live in a world of fantasy and ideals, not practical reality. After reading the article, it did address Chinese culture. So leftists want this... Do they really?

They want an authoritarian government to tell them what to think? Why don't they listen to conservatives and obey the 10 commandments then? I don't think they know what they really want, they just want different from what they have, also known as grass is always greener syndrome. They are media controlled zombies swallowing the narratives fed to them by pop culture and social media, as we all are to some degree.
Oh, the irony.
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Old 01-20-2023, 07:46 AM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,830 posts, read 7,190,769 times
Reputation: 7773
Who are these Democrats or left wingers that love the anti-democratic CCP? Any actual examples, or did you just make that up?

I am on the American Left, and countries like China remind me of the direction that the right wingers of this forum want to take us. Mindless authoritarianism/nationalist mindset, total opposition to democracy, no press freedom, social conservative values and moral police, extreme anti-drug enforcement, etc.

Maybe go find a mirror and take a good, long look at what it is you want, before you claim some complete BS about what other people want. It's my total opposition to communism and anything like it, that led me to my views of political liberalism and libertarianism. The populist MAGA people (complete with Dear Leader type idol worship of their total nincompoop political savior), are the freedom-haters and western democracy haters around here, despite whatever their rhetoric might claim.

The people who will write stuff like, "liberals can't think!" "they have no critical thinking ability!" - I just laugh, because, each one of my posts features more thought, than their entire backlog of posting history, which is just regurgitated idiotic one liners they got from Sean Hannity and looney nutbar conspiracy theory social media.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taratova View Post
The Communist Chinese see that they can have a road in through the Democrat Party because they are big on federal government while the Republican Party are big on states rights. It is much easier to infiltrate for purposes of a dictatorship to use the Democrat big federal government as a dictatorship growing big federal government to clamp down on the people such as communism does. The Chinese communists wouldn't have a road in because the Republicans are for states rights which are 50 states and could not penetrate in any way of all the states becoming a dictatorship or a totalitarian government. The Democrats are for big big and bigger federal government. And more totalitarian control of the American people.
Seems to me that the entire current political goal of the Republican Party, is a nationwide ban on abortion. If states' rights are important to you, then, leave our sane blue states alone, to set our own policies. Thanks.
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Old 01-20-2023, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Where my bills arrive
19,090 posts, read 16,895,426 times
Reputation: 15443
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roderic View Post
Yes, I have no problems associating or even attaching the collective American Left to China or the Chinese model of governance.

I fled communism in 1975, and when I said 'fled' I mean the true meaning of the word that includes fear, poverty, and uncertainty. In the 48 yrs living in the US, from refugee to veteran status, I see the American Left consistently enamored of any country that practices any version of Marxism. The most prominent was the Soviet Union, of course. Bernie Sanders admired the Soviets. But now that the Soviet Union is gone, it is China, except that China proved to be more intelligent, and no less brutal, than the Soviets in controlling their people.

So tell us...
Kaye acknowledged the ways in which the Chinese Communist Party would insert itself into family life, be it by controlling what her kids ate or by dictating the number of hours they should sleep at night.

'In China, government co-parenting begins in the womb,' she wrote, referring to the limits on how many children parents were allowed, which have since been relaxed.

She added that not long after enrolling her kids in state-run schools it started controlling how they should live.
Who, meaning which political party, would be more likely to be attracted to what Heather Kaye so admired? Am not asking about the party's official platform. Am asking about individual members. Am not asking if YOU personally know anyone in your circle who would be so attracted. Am asking if you are willing to be honest enough to make a critical examination of the American Left. Heather Kaye is not merely admiring the Chinese model of individual governance, she WELCOMES it, and now, since she had to leave China due to COVID, she longs for that level of governmental intrusion. For the 48 yrs living in the US, I have yet to meet any conservative, Republican, or Libertarian with the same mindset. But I met many American Leftists, Marxists, Liberals, Progressives, and Democrats who would love to have similar models of such governance in the US. Not exactly the same, just similar enough that if possible, the US and China would be brothers.
Kaye claimed she was also grateful for the way surrendering parts of their children's lives to the state reduced burdens on her and her husband - and wished American parents might see the value in doing the same.
Heather Kaye is not merely thankful but actually grateful that there was such State intrusion into her personal life. We can be greater than %50 certain that her husband George is of the same mind.
Kaye saw merit in Chinese censorship too. 'Raising kids in China was a plus in other ways — such as the heavy censorship,' she wrote.

The government imposed limits on how much time her kids could spend playing video games and it saved them from accessing problematic material on the internet.

Not only that, the state's supervision would keep her daughters safe as they navigated the sprawling but relatively safe Shanghai subway.
Notice Heather Kaye said nothing about her as an adult and censorship. Why not? The CPC censors everyone regardless of age, but Heather Kaye misled the readers by focusing on children. Of course, children deserves heavy censorship. Duh. Then as they get older, the censorship eases as how we do it. Finally, as an adult, the person essentially has none. But Heather Kaye misled the readers by saying nothing about how China censored her and her husband, as how the CPC censors the other one billion+ Chinese.

When our company hosted some Intel engineers from Dalian, China, for training, I made friends with a few of them. None of them knew the details of Tiananmen Square as we expected them to be, after all, the event happened in public in the middle of the capital. I loaned one guy a few of my books about China and Tiananmen Square and he read them all, admitting that most Chinese know at best 1/2 of what Americans could know. Most American Left would love to have that kind of power over the American people, and I have no problems saying that.
You fled at a different time in the countries history and you have your own experiences which I wouldn't question. Growing up in and experiencing as a visitor are 2 different things and her observations found merit in many things that you find oppressive but what you haven't learned about this country is we have the freedom to think for ourselves and to enjoy whatever experiences we have, it doesn't have to meet your approval.

But to blatantly label anyone on the "left" as a favoring China is again just your opinion. This is one person who I never heard of and if she enjoyed it, so what, it doesn't affect me and doesn't mean that I or anyone else want to follow Chinas model. You say you have never seen "any conservative, Republican, or Libertarian with the same mindset" that's your experiences.

If you want to see the implementation of autocracy look at Florida and how the Governor is making the decisions, not the state agency responsible but based on his view that morning. How many challenges to fair elections are we still seeing, accusations against them, cheating but only in the case of candidates who didn't win, the other party members who won in the same state are valid. And lets not forget January 6th and how those elected officials and their supporters reacted.

So you keep thinking what you would like that's your right in this country but maybe try looking from a different perspective as you thought Heather Kaye should have in China.
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Old 01-20-2023, 09:53 AM
 
2,256 posts, read 923,707 times
Reputation: 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oklazona Bound View Post
Many aspects of CCP rule fits perfectly with American conservatives. Law and order and tough on crime. Zero tolerance to any illegal drug use. Censorship of hollywood movies that contain sexual content.

Point is both sides can cheery pick facts that make either the American left or right in line with the CCP. China is not the USA and does not mirror exactly the left or right on this country.

This is the answer. Stop trying to put other countries in boxes and constraints that you're familiar with.
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Old 01-20-2023, 09:55 AM
 
2,256 posts, read 923,707 times
Reputation: 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
Balony! China is the current "Hate" Kool-aid drink of choice for both the left and the right in America. The reality is that China is a convenient scapegoat for both sides as these Americans compete in their domestic mudslinging contest, and it's understandable because China's economy has reached more than 80% of the US economy, and historically, any country with an economy that approach 70% of the American GDP becomes the "Bete-Noire" of American politics and social media. China is way pass the 70% mark and it seems unstoppable. The US knocked out both the USSR and Japan in the 20th century (the USSR imploded and the Japanese economy tanked in the 1990's and remains sluggish and weak today, having grown very little), but it looks like China will be a different case from both the Soviet and Japanese cases. Hence both the left and right in the US will do anything at this point in desperation to smear China and create a massive demon out of the country and its people to galvanize the American population and divert very obvious domestic problems.

Exactly, we're in a Thucydides trap but instead of a kinetic war, it's an economic and technological war, for now.
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Old 01-20-2023, 09:56 AM
 
2,256 posts, read 923,707 times
Reputation: 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by bergun View Post
Cuz most People on the Left are not capable of critical thinking or lack critical thinking skills. Plus, they are easily convince with propaganda slogans that they hear and are too eager to conform to group thinking than self thinking.

The Communist Chinese are not stupid since they know that they can defeat America by burning it down from the inside, simply using the lowest of the lowest information voters within the US.

A lot cheap than going to war.

Lol, unlike the rights' superior critical thinking skills where they lap up everything that Fox News says?
Both sides in this country despise each other and will accuse their media of spreading misinformation but when it comes to stories about Russia and China, they'll believe it like it's gospel.
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Old 01-20-2023, 10:03 AM
 
19,545 posts, read 17,806,917 times
Reputation: 17061
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
Who are these Democrats or left wingers that love the anti-democratic CCP? Any actual examples, or did you just make that up?

I am on the American Left, and countries like China remind me of the direction that the right wingers of this forum want to take us. Mindless authoritarianism/nationalist mindset, total opposition to democracy, no press freedom, social conservative values and moral police, extreme anti-drug enforcement, etc.

Maybe go find a mirror and take a good, long look at what it is you want, before you claim some complete BS about what other people want. It's my total opposition to communism and anything like it, that led me to my views of political liberalism and libertarianism. The populist MAGA people (complete with Dear Leader type idol worship of their total nincompoop political savior), are the freedom-haters and western democracy haters around here, despite whatever their rhetoric might claim.

The people who will write stuff like, "liberals can't think!" "they have no critical thinking ability!" - I just laugh, because, each one of my posts features more thought, than their entire backlog of posting history, which is just regurgitated idiotic one liners they got from Sean Hannity and looney nutbar conspiracy theory social media.



Seems to me that the entire current political goal of the Republican Party, is a nationwide ban on abortion. If states' rights are important to you, then, leave our sane blue states alone, to set our own policies. Thanks.
This is why people on the left and right rarely communicate well..........posturing.


Your side needs strong central governments to collect, manage and spend tax spoils on the things you want.

__________


Most people on the right want weaker/less involved government not authoritarian strong-men.
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Old 01-20-2023, 10:13 AM
 
5,950 posts, read 3,210,598 times
Reputation: 10704
American leftists are delusional. In China, they have de facto forced labor. But here in the US, people are quiet quitting and many are even actually quitting.

In China, they make certain people (non-Han Chinese) do the bad jobs. Is that why leftists love open borders? So they’ll be able to treat the Guatemalans just like the Chinese treat the Uyghurs?

That’s why I find leftists to be hypocrites. They talk a good game about utopia, but at the same time, they need people to slave at miserable jobs so they have an iPhone and an E-vehicle.
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Old 01-20-2023, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,830 posts, read 7,190,769 times
Reputation: 7773
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Your side needs strong central governments to collect, manage and spend tax spoils on the things you want.
Not necessarily. For example, I'm in favor of opening it up so that individual states can decide if they want a single-payer healthcare system or not, since that doesn't seem like a political reality anytime soon nationally. And I'm opening up to the idea of states rights on abortion, if the only alternative is a nationwide ban.

Seems to me a more liberal and left-wing version of the US, could actually be a smaller government, too. How much of the national budget goes towards all the global militarism and drug prohibition enforcement and all that right wing favored stuff? A lot of it, right?

The American Left is largely in favor of our capitalist society. There are fewer than 10 socialists in congress, out of hundreds of elected Democrats.
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