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So what will Lia do now? Did anybody ask him if he would try competing against men? If swimming is a passion of his.
He already did that he was ranked in the 400s and 500s.
There was an interesting development I stumbled on to shortly after all the hoopla died down over him swimming with females. He had separate social media accounts under different names that really seemed to focus a lot on something called autogynophilia. I presume you know what this is but for those who don't that's a man who gets gratification from seeing himself as a woman it's a sexual fetish.
I did you seemed more interested in telling me about parallels.
I don't know that we do because I honestly have no idea why someone would be trans so I'm not sure I made a definitive statement on why someone is trans for you to disagree with.
I can accept that gender identity is a real concept with relation to transgender people as that's how transgenderism that exists. I'm just not sure that it's a real concept outside of that.
For instance I don't identify as a human because I feel like a human I identify as a human because that's what I am. I'm not sure I can understand not feeling like a human I can't feel outside of my humaneness so everything I ever feel at any time is within the confines of human.
I know that's a bit pedantic, but it's the same thing with gender. I don't identify as a man because I feel like a man I identify as a man because I'm an adult and I have a penis. Outside of this what else is there to being a man? I'm not talking about gender roles or secondary sexual characteristics because gender roles are absolutely culturally created and I don't think they should be a hard and fast rule anyway for instance a man who wants to arrange flowers shouldn't say anything about his gender or sex and a woman who wants to lay bricks also shouldn't say anything about her gender or sex. Same with fashion the same with personality I generally don't accept the idea that this is inextricably leaked to sex I think in this regard I'm a post-modernist. All of the rules that say a woman must do this in a man must do that are largely things I didn't grow up with. And never adhere to so it's perplexing to me too think of this as connected to my genetics. I was socialized in the post of modern era.
That alone should be enough to make anybody seriously question any connection the genetics or biology.
well I admit that I was emotionally charged. Hearing young men and women lament about going through the process of transitioning only to find out that it's not what they needed really strikes a court with me but there's no excuse for being emotional about it and I apologize for that.
If you decide to respond I'll do my best to leave the emotion out of it.
No worries at all.
I totally understand what you’re saying, and it does make logical sense. But bear with me and hear me out, because I have a different take on it.
I think gender identity is something you aren’t necessarily conscious of, unless there’s something going on.
Let’s take the John Money experiment (awful as it was).
They raised that child, born a boy, as if he were a girl. Everyone thought so except for his parents and the doctor.
Everyone tested him like a girl, he was socialised as a girl, but somewhere inside he knew he wasn’t. Nothing they did could convince him otherwise because he knew he was a boy (even without a penis). He was absolutely miserable trying to be something he wasn’t.
Now of course he had all the physical characteristics of being male except for outward genitalia.
Something in his physicality, hormones, chromosomes, brain, or all of that, kept telling him in his gut that he was not a girl.
It’s my opinion that some people have that wire crossed, and for whatever reason are deeply convinced their internal gender identity is not the same as their sex characteristics would dictate. And not being able to express that identity makes them miserable, like the kid in the experiment.
There's more to gender identity within people than just looking at your penis and figuring that makes you a boy.
If there wasn’t, that kid would have remained fooled.
I totally understand what you’re saying, and it does make logical sense. But bear with me and hear me out, because I have a different take on it.
I think gender identity is something you aren’t necessarily conscious of, unless there’s something going on.
Let’s take the John Money experiment (awful as it was).
They raised that child, born a boy, as if he were a girl. Everyone thought so except for his parents and the doctor.
Everyone tested him like a girl, he was socialised as a girl, but somewhere inside he knew he wasn’t. Nothing they did could convince him otherwise because he knew he was a boy (even without a penis). He was absolutely miserable trying to be something he wasn’t.
Now of course he had all the physical characteristics of being male except for outward genitalia.
Something in his physicality, hormones, chromosomes, brain, or all of that, kept telling him in his gut that he was not a girl.
It’s my opinion that some people have that wire crossed, and for whatever reason are deeply convinced their internal gender identity is not the same as their sex characteristics would dictate. And not being able to express that identity makes them miserable, like the kid in the experiment.
There's more to gender identity within people than just looking at your penis and figuring that makes you a boy.
If there wasn’t, that kid would have remained fooled.
Unless you’re trans yourself I don’t know how you can speculate.
I’m a man because everyone thinks I’m a man. I feel like myself though, I have no idea what feeling like a man is for other men.
He already did that he was ranked in the 400s and 500s.
There was an interesting development I stumbled on to shortly after all the hoopla died down over him swimming with females. He had separate social media accounts under different names that really seemed to focus a lot on something called autogynophilia. I presume you know what this is but for those who don't that's a man who gets gratification from seeing himself as a woman it's a sexual fetish.
Do you have a link to that?
I’m asking because it’s pretty easy to make spoof accounts and post stuff that casts people in a bad light.
The concept that that trans people are autogynophilliac is a tactic used by anti trans activists to paint trans people as fetishists and degenerates that are just getting off on presenting as women, and don’t have gender incongruence at all.
It could be true, but I would take it with a grain of salt. It’s just too too convenient that Thomas would post about that under fake names.
Unless you’re trans yourself I don’t know how you can speculate.
I’m a man because everyone thinks I’m a man. I feel like myself though, I have no idea what feeling like a man is for other men.
I can speculate because there’s documented cases of transitioning children who have ambiguous genitalia, or are intersex, or who’ve had an accident like David Reimer, who have been brought up as one gender and thoroughly rejected that characterisation as an teen/adult.
In Reimer’s case, he had breasts and hormones, as well as no testes or penis, and still his identity was solidly male.
“Following their consultation with Money, Reimer’s parents decided to raise Reimer as a girl. Physicians at the Johns Hopkins Hospital removed Reimer’s testes and damaged penis, and constructed a vestigial vulvae and a vaginal canal in their place. The physicians also opened a small hole in Reimer’s lower abdomen for urination. Following his gender reassignment surgery, Reimer was given the first name Brenda, and his parents raised him as a girl. He received estrogen during adolescence to promote the development of breasts. Throughout his childhood, Reimer was not informed about his male biology.”
If gender identity was just a social construct, how would he know he was a boy?
“Contrary to Money’s notes, Reimer reports that as a child he experienced severe gender dysphoria, a condition in which someone experiences distress as a result of their assigned gender. Reimer reported that he did not identify as a girl and resented Money’s visits for treatment. At the age of thirteen, Reimer threatened to commit suicide if his parents took him to Money on the next annual visit. Bullied by peers in school for his masculine traits, Reimer claimed that despite receiving female hormones, wearing dresses, and having his interests directed toward typically female norms, he always felt that he was a boy.”
I can speculate because there’s documented cases of transitioning children who have ambiguous genitalia, or are intersex, or who’ve had an accident like David Reimer, who have been brought up as one gender and thoroughly rejected that characterisation as an teen/adult.
In Reimer’s case, he had breasts and hormones, as well as no testes or penis, and still his identity was solidly male.
“Following their consultation with Money, Reimer’s parents decided to raise Reimer as a girl. Physicians at the Johns Hopkins Hospital removed Reimer’s testes and damaged penis, and constructed a vestigial vulvae and a vaginal canal in their place. The physicians also opened a small hole in Reimer’s lower abdomen for urination. Following his gender reassignment surgery, Reimer was given the first name Brenda, and his parents raised him as a girl. He received estrogen during adolescence to promote the development of breasts. Throughout his childhood, Reimer was not informed about his male biology.”
If gender identity was just a social construct, how would he know he was a boy?
“Contrary to Money’s notes, Reimer reports that as a child he experienced severe gender dysphoria, a condition in which someone experiences distress as a result of their assigned gender. Reimer reported that he did not identify as a girl and resented Money’s visits for treatment. At the age of thirteen, Reimer threatened to commit suicide if his parents took him to Money on the next annual visit. Bullied by peers in school for his masculine traits, Reimer claimed that despite receiving female hormones, wearing dresses, and having his interests directed toward typically female norms, he always felt that he was a boy.”
In there is the issue: bullied for his masculine traits.
Intersex is a sad situation where the individual is born with two genitalia and the surgeon needs to guess. If they guess on the other side of hormones, then the kid goes and develops traits of the opposite sex they were assigned.
This to me makes sense.
Transgender as a whole, often times resemble their sex just fine. They just “feel” different. Neither you nor I really know why, I doubt either of us ever thought about what it’s like to be the opposite gender.
I totally understand what you’re saying, and it does make logical sense. But bear with me and hear me out, because I have a different take on it.
I think gender identity is something you aren’t necessarily conscious of, unless there’s something going on.
Let’s take the John Money experiment (awful as it was).
They raised that child, born a boy, as if he were a girl. Everyone thought so except for his parents and the doctor.
Everyone tested him like a girl, he was socialised as a girl, but somewhere inside he knew he wasn’t. Nothing they did could convince him otherwise because he knew he was a boy (even without a penis). He was absolutely miserable trying to be something he wasn’t.
Now of course he had all the physical characteristics of being male except for outward genitalia.
Something in his physicality, hormones, chromosomes, brain, or all of that, kept telling him in his gut that he was not a girl.
It’s my opinion that some people have that wire crossed, and for whatever reason are deeply convinced their internal gender identity is not the same as their sex characteristics would dictate. And not being able to express that identity makes them miserable, like the kid in the experiment.
There's more to gender identity within people than just looking at your penis and figuring that makes you a boy.
If there wasn’t, that kid would have remained fooled.
Thanks for hearing me out.
I'm not sure if most people have gender identity they identify with their sex. For instance I am a man not because I identify that way but because I have a penis. I think we can drop the word identity off of this because we're talking about this conceptualization of gender.
It's hard for me to conceptualize probably because I never had to deal with it before. But I'm starting to become quite puzzled as to what gender even is.
If someone takes hormones to look more like the opposite sex or they're trying to look like the opposite sex not any gender what is gender look like?
Is it close is it my car I've seen men who aren't trans wear dresses and makeup. Is it a personality I don't understand a personality connected with sex.
So regarding this experiment I'm not sure how gender was involved at all. He didn't feel like a girl because he wasn't. He didn't have any awareness of his gender. Possibly not even his sex.
The twin who was mutilated probably had no idea what was wrong with him until he was told so I'm not sure it was his gender telling him this it was his sex.
He didn't feel like a girl he didn't identify as a girl. People told him he was and he believed it.
I am perfectly willing to accept that trans people feel this way except for it's in reverse but I don't see how that's a characteristic like gender this doesn't sound like it's intuitive knowledge if it was I don't think I'd be so puzzled about it. But to me it sounds like transgender is a misnomer what the term should be is transsexual. And I see that because trans people attempt to emulate the opposite sex.
A woman can look like anybody especially if I can identify as one a woman can look like me. In fact if I so decided to identify as a woman I wouldn't have to change anything. I wouldn't have to shave my legs I could still wear boots I wouldn't have to shave my beard I wouldn't have to take hormone replacement therapy or get any kind of surgery I wouldn't even have to change my wardrobe or wear makeup because women don't have to do any of those things
So if all of this is the case what's the point of transition?
I'm not sure if most people have gender identity they identify with their sex.
Yes, exactly. You’re absolutely correct. For most people, you wouldn’t even be conscious of a gender identity, because your sex confirms your sense of self.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrigby
For instance I am a man not because I identify that way but because I have a penis. I think we can drop the word identity off of this because we're talking about this conceptualization of gender.
Well we can’t, because gender identity is internal, it’s not conceptually the same as gender roles. Gender roles or how one dress is our societal concept of gender. People can express that very differently. But your identity, if it’s not congruent with your sex, can cause all sorts of grief, including dysphoria. Many trans people describe the feeling of their identity not matching their sex characteristics. I don’t think that’s a delusion, I think their identity is not the same as most people’s, as you said in your first sentence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrigby
It's hard for me to conceptualize probably because I never had to deal with it before. But I'm starting to become quite puzzled as to what gender even is.
Same. I have absolutely no desire to be or even visualisation of what it’s like to feel like a man. I can intellectualise it, but I have no idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrigby
If someone takes hormones to look more like the opposite sex or they're trying to look like the opposite sex not any gender what is gender look like?
As far as I understand it, it’s not so much to satisfy what other people think they should look like but to satisfy what their internal visualisation of where they fit, or what they see reflected back at them in the mirror.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrigby
Is it close is it my car I've seen men who aren't trans wear dresses and makeup. Is it a personality I don't understand a personality connected with sex.
Yes, that’s not the same thing at all as feeling there’s actually something deeply mismatched between how you feel versus how you’re constructed. (Feel is not the right word, which is why the use identify instead).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrigby
So regarding this experiment I'm not sure how gender was involved at all. He didn't feel like a girl because he wasn't. He didn't have any awareness of his gender. Possibly not even his sex.
The twin who was mutilated probably had no idea what was wrong with him until he was told so I'm not sure it was his gender telling him this it was his sex.
He didn't feel like a girl he didn't identify as a girl. People told him he was and he believed it.
He didn’t believe it though, deep down. And what mechanism causes your sex to tell you you’re male, when you don’t have balls and have been getting shots of estrogen, and you’ve been socialised as a girl? I think that’s what I’m talking about - a sense of identity that tells you your gender. That’s your identity, that doesn’t really matter to anyone unless there’s something wrong, some incongruence. The kid suffered gender dysphoria because he was forced to live as the opposite gender to his identity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrigby
I am perfectly willing to accept that trans people feel this way except for it's in reverse but I don't see how that's a characteristic like gender this doesn't sound like it's intuitive knowledge if it was I don't think I'd be so puzzled about it. But to me it sounds like transgender is a misnomer what the term should be is transsexual. And I see that because trans people attempt to emulate the opposite sex.
Yes transsexual would be the correct terminology, people don’t use it much anymore because it has such negative connotations, but that’s the right idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrigby
A woman can look like anybody especially if I can identify as one a woman can look like me. In fact if I so decided to identify as a woman I wouldn't have to change anything. I wouldn't have to shave my legs I could still wear boots I wouldn't have to shave my beard I wouldn't have to take hormone replacement therapy or get any kind of surgery I wouldn't even have to change my wardrobe or wear makeup because women don't have to do any of those things
So if all of this is the case what's the point of transition?
That’s an excellent question. Sometimes it’s because people have a driving desire to “pass” as a the opposite sex, to be fully accepted, and transitioning helps with that.
But I think mostly it’s so that the person can adjust themselves so that they match how they internally feel, which stops their dysphoria. It’s not necessarily about what other people think.
Some trans don’t transition, or don’t do much medically but socially only.
The thing is there’s not a one size fits all. It is indeed confusing. I get that absolutely. I have a hard time trying to understand a lot of it myself.
Thanks for being open to a conversation, I appreciate it.
Imagine how far our society has degenerated that we have to celebrate something that even cavemen would know not to allow.
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