Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
What countries has Putin invaded? (not counting internal rebellions)
Russian-occupied territories
In Moldova: Transnistria (1), since 1992.
In Georgia: Abkhazia (2) and South Ossetia (3), since 2008.
In Ukraine: Crimea (4) and parts of Luhansk Oblast (5) and Donetsk Oblast (6), since 2014; and parts of Zaporizhzhia Oblast (7) and Kherson Oblast (8), since 2022.
(Remember, that to get Ukraine to surrender their nukes to Russia, a solemn promise was made to honor Ukraine's sovereignty forever. Dumb move.)
- - -
Belarus forms a Union State with Russia. It has been described as a Russian puppet state or de facto Russian since 2022, following the crushing of the 2020–2021 Belarusian protests with Russian assistance and Russian invasion of Ukraine staged from Belarus.
And Belarus butts up against NATO. What was that complaint that NATO was expanding to Russia's borders? Yeah, right.
What countries has Putin invaded? (not counting internal rebellions)
Russian-occupied territories
In Moldova: Transnistria (1), since 1992.
In Georgia: Abkhazia (2) and South Ossetia (3), since 2008.
In Ukraine: Crimea (4) and parts of Luhansk Oblast (5) and Donetsk Oblast (6), since 2014; and parts of Zaporizhzhia Oblast (7) and Kherson Oblast (8), since 2022.
(Remember, that to get Ukraine to surrender their nukes to Russia, a solemn promise was made to honor Ukraine's sovereignty forever. Dumb move.)
- - -
Belarus forms a Union State with Russia. It has been described as a Russian puppet state or de facto Russian since 2022, following the crushing of the 2020–2021 Belarusian protests with Russian assistance and Russian invasion of Ukraine staged from Belarus.
And Belarus butts up against NATO. What was that complaint that NATO was expanding to Russia's borders? Yeah, right.
"(Remember, that to get Ukraine to surrender their nukes to Russia, a solemn promise was made to honor Ukraine's sovereignty forever. Dumb move.)!"
The nukes were never Ukraine's. They were the USSR's nukes and when the USSR collapsed, there was an international consensus that Russia would be the inheritors (including of USSR debt btw).
There is an agreement called the Budapest Memorandum - this was part of the process to get the nukes out of Ukraine. Afterall, NOBODY wanted a newly created state to overnight, become the 3rd largest holder of nuclear missiles. The BM was part of the process to get Ukraine into the NPT.
Today some western media present the BM as a treaty, but it was never ratified by the US, UK nor Russia. And Russia don't consider it a treaty.
It was intentionally worded to be non legally binding. (Im referring to the security guarantees).
But the answer is simple:
Without NATO membership for Ukraine, the Russian threat against the country will continue, as will the need for the West to respond to Moscow's aggression. The only way to take care of that threat over the long term is to bring Ukraine into NATO and deter future Russian invasion.
It's Russia fault that some border countries decided to join NATO for security/safety reasons. Russia is unpredictable and at that point any previous arrangements should be voided.
Is that your spin? That is a dumb move to only extend endless wars. It's like Russia putting their military on our border and blame us for our reaction.
"See. We were always right, We need to leave our military bases in Mexico and corrupt their government to stop an aggression from the U.S." Is like blaming you for your reaction if I park a tank in from of your house and started talking crap about you.
I guess to stop a future "aggression" (others call it reaction) We need to expand to the borders of the other side. That would prevent future wars. LOL
We created this mess. When the Cold War ended in 1991, the Soviet Union dissolved. We had 15 members in NATO. Instead of keeping that number and cool off, what does the U.S. do? Expands to 31 countries and keep heading East to Russia while invading Iraq and Afghanistan. What do you think the reaction would be? Really? This is not rocket science. Try to put yourself in their shoes for 1 minute. What would We do, if it was the other way around. We bombed back to the stone ages countries far away for lesser things (wink, wink Democracy). Imagine what We would do if the scenario was in the other way around. You think We would be passive when the threat is at our border?
The NATO chief has said it is inevitable that Ukraine will join NATO.
Russia has been clear for decades that Ukraine joining NATO is a red line for them. Why push this red line?
It's been reported that if the US/NATO guaranteed Ukraine would remain neutral this war would have been avoided.
The US has pushed red lines too, for example Cuba in the past and present. We just reiterated to China that them having a military base there is a red line. Russia doesn't respect borders? Biden has just opened more military bases inside of Syria against their will, Iraq is demanding that all US forces leave and Biden laughs, etc...
Highlighted above^^ Seems Biden doesn't respect our border either so am guessing Biden has more in common with the Russians than US citizens.
Myth:
NATO promised Russia it would not expand after the Cold War
Fact:
Such an agreement was never made. NATO’s door has been open to new members since it was founded in 1949. This has never changed. No treaty signed by NATO Allies and Russia included provisions on NATO membership. Decisions on NATO membership are taken by consensus among all Allies. Russia does not have a veto.
In short, at a time when Westerners were offering the "guarantees" spoken of by Vladimir Putin, no one could have predicted the collapse of the USSR and the historic upheavals that followed.
"In addition, these promises were made orally and were never recorded in a treaty. The turning point of NATO enlargement came much later, in 1995, at the request of the Eastern European countries." https://www.france24.com/en/russia/2...ng-to-the-east
Myth
The news we are presented by the MSM is totally true, factual, and intended to keep us accurately informed … really … promise!
Fact
Western MSM is at the very least, totally distorted and deceptive 100% of the time, but more often than not, beyond untruthful, and so untrue as to be considered an “anti-truth”. What is an “anti-truth” ? A lie so false, it is the complete opposite of the truth. 180 degrees from the truth. An Orwellian style of truth where Up=Down, weakness=strength, and War=Peace.
In the famous words of Paul Harvey, …. “And now, for the rest of the story …..”:
Let’s first address this alleged “debunked myth” of promises made to Russia not to expand NATO ….. now it seems you wish to promote the story …. “Nothing was made in writing!! It was only verbal agreements!!!” Ha! What shall we make of this, other than what it is …. a real confession … a confession that it isn’t a myth at all, but just another example of western duplicity and lying, insisting that since the Russians have nothing in writing, like a formal treaty, the Russians can go stuff themselves! We just gave you Rooskies our word, and how stupid can you be to actually believe us? After all, you should know “our word” is meaningless, because we have proven time and again we possess no integrity! Let that be a lesson Russia … you want a warranty? Verbal ones don’t count!
So, the only “myth” being exposed here is the myth that we have behaved honorably in our dealings with Russia, or that Russia can trust anything we say, which necessarily would include our “word” that Ukraine joining NATO is no threat to Russia! An ancillary myth is also debunked claiming that the conflict with Ukraine was an unprovoked act of naked aggression on the part of Russia!
Today’s main narratives, one of which is this absurd claim of a global threat posed by the evil Russian aggressors, who still want to take over the world, and whose expansionist agenda poses an ongoing threat to its neighbors and all of Europe, thereby validating not just NATO’s continued existence, but its continued expansion as an essential and necessary military defensive alliance to defend the free world from the imperialistic Rooskies ….. fits right in with many of the other equally preposterous narratives we are constantly bombarded with, ranging from the pseudo science of Climate Change, to the bold faced lie of “Safe and Effective”.
But enough appetizers… back to the main course … in congruent lockstep, the main dish “Russian Stew” is then seasoned with equally nonsensical spices like Russia collusion, fake Dossiers, and insinuations that Donald Trump might actually be a secret Russian agent, covertly working directly for the brutal dictator, Vladimir Putin. Sadly, too many people actually believe all of this nonsense is true, when none of it is even remotely reflective of a single truth, no matter how far one might choose to stretch it. All of it actually fits the aforementioned category of “anti-truth”.
History is a funny thing … broken down, it’s really “His-Story”, and therefore must be scrutinized, and its factual basis carefully analyzed. Insofar as bringing Ukraine into the NATO alliance … the true historical facts make this objective an extremely destabilizing threat to peace, because the Russians have made it’s position clear that such an act constitutes an existential threat to Russian National Security, and justifiably so, given NATO’s creation was formed to be a military alliance to fight and defeat the former Soviet Union in the advent of war. Many, including non-Russian political analysts believe that since the Soviet Union no longer exists, NATO itself no longer serves a defensive purpose, as it was created to be, but is now an aggressive military alliance with its own expansionist goals. And of course, the facts make bare that truth, i.e., Ukraine’s potential membership, along with others, like Finland, who betrayed their promise to the USSR at the conclusion of WW II, that in exchange for it being allowed to maintain its sovereignty as a neighboring state, their only obligation in return was their promise to forever remain a neutral country and never again join a military alliance hostile to Russia. And for 80 years the Fins enjoyed peaceful coexistence with the USSR and later, the Russian Federation, who honored their portion of their security guarantees to Finland completely. In a similar theme of gross duplicity, Finland claims that these promises made to remain neutral were made to the Soviet Union, and not Russia, and since the Soviet Union no longer exists, neither do such promises. Imagine that.
Finland’s joining of NATO was not just unnecessary, since there had been no security threat from Russia, but was indeed an outright betrayal of their long standing commitment to remain a neutral nation. Yet, contrary to the false narrative of Russia’s aggressive nature, the Russians have maintained their peaceful posture toward Finland, in spite of Finland’s decision to become a member of a hostile military alliance, without provocation or reason.
Ukraine is another matter altogether, as we have now seen first hand. Russia has long maintained that it cannot and will not accept a situation where Ukraine becomes a member of NATO, and the entire conflict still ongoing now could have been prevented from the very beginning, had Ukraine simply abandoned its pursuit of NATO membership, and honored its agreements made at Minsk to cease its military assaults on civilians in the Donbas region of eastern Ukraine.
The many diplomatic attempts by the Russians over the last decade to avoid the current war were rejected by Ukraine (US/NATO), the latest of which was made two weeks prior to the Russian military engaging military action against Ukraine. The offer was simple and reasonable … and in hindsight, extremely favorable to Ukrainian interests as it now stands …. the Russians promised to guarantee no military action against Ukraine, and respect Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty, to INCLUDE the now Russian annexed portions of eastern Ukraine in return for Ukraine’s promise to honor already agreed to commitments it signed under the Minsk agreements, and to abandon its pursuit of NATO membership.
So, the non-Orwellian truth is, the Ukraine-Russia war is a consequence of continuing NATO/US provocation, and hostile actions which pose a long term threat to Russian National Security, particularly if you consider the outrageous rhetoric that continues to spew from the war mongering morons in WASHINGTON DC, calling for regime change in Russia, and insisting that Russia is our number one enemy, and a threat to world peace, and its president a Brutal Murderer and Dictator who must be removed from power. Given these outrageous public statements made by high level US officials, how could Russia not believe that Ukraine’s membership in NATO is anything other than a clear threat to Russia’s national security?
So, when Donald Trump claims that the war would never have happened had he been in the White House, or that he could end the war in 24 hours … it’s an accurate and truthful claim, and a simple thing to accomplish, with two phone calls … one call to Putin, promising no NATO membership to Ukraine, and one phone call to Zelensky instructing him to withdraw and cease hostile military operations against Russian forces and against civilians in the Donbas. The war would end, immediately.
Now, you know the rest of the story.
Last edited by GuyNTexas; 02-26-2024 at 11:32 AM..
But the answer is simple:
Without NATO membership for Ukraine, the Russian threat against the country will continue, as will the need for the West to respond to Moscow's aggression. The only way to take care of that threat over the long term is to bring Ukraine into NATO and deter future Russian invasion.
It's Russia fault that some border countries decided to join NATO for security/safety reasons. Russia is unpredictable and at that point any previous arrangements should be voided.
Wow if Ukraine was admitted to NATO and Russia was still at war within Ukraine and according to NATO the US would also be at war with Russia on day one of Ukraine being admitted.
Until the war is over which I am almost positive Russia will win and there would not be Ukraine as we know it to be admitted.
If the war ended today and Russia keep all its gains Ukraine is so corrupt I am not sure I would allow them into NATO ever or at least until a regime change.
"(Remember, that to get Ukraine to surrender their nukes to Russia, a solemn promise was made to honor Ukraine's sovereignty forever. Dumb move.)!"
The nukes were never Ukraine's. They were the USSR's nukes and when the USSR collapsed, there was an international consensus that Russia would be the inheritors (including of USSR debt btw).
There is an agreement called the Budapest Memorandum - this was part of the process to get the nukes out of Ukraine. Afterall, NOBODY wanted a newly created state to overnight, become the 3rd largest holder of nuclear missiles. The BM was part of the process to get Ukraine into the NPT.
Today some western media present the BM as a treaty, but it was never ratified by the US, UK nor Russia. And Russia don't consider it a treaty.
It was intentionally worded to be non legally binding. (Im referring to the security guarantees).
Ukraine blew it. They should have insisted on a treaty to give up the nukes. Their screw-up shouldn't be my problem.
Wow if Ukraine was admitted to NATO and Russia was still at war within Ukraine and according to NATO the US would also be at war with Russia on day one of Ukraine being admitted.
Until the war is over which I am almost positive Russia will win and there would not be Ukraine as we know it to be admitted.
If the war ended today and Russia keep all its gains Ukraine is so corrupt I am not sure I would allow them into NATO ever or at least until a regime change.
Actually, the NATO membership criteria prohibits the acceptance of new members who are currently engaged in a military conflict.
Now, aside that, there are qualifications to meet militarily, to become a member, which of course includes not just the infrastructure, but the willingness to meet its obligation to host NATO forces, including Nuclear. And I don’t think it’s going out on a flimsy limb to conclude that this might be one of the more primary concerns for Russia to have a nuclear armed NATO base in its backyard, going by the name of Ukraine.
This harkens back to the Cuban Missile Crisis when the Soviets began installing short range nuclear capable missile installations in Cuba … and how we reacted to such provocative actions, that came close to all out war between the USSR and the United States, until cooler heads prevailed.
The NATO chief has said it is inevitable that Ukraine will join NATO.
Russia has been clear for decades that Ukraine joining NATO is a red line for them. Why push this red line?
It's been reported that if the US/NATO guaranteed Ukraine would remain neutral this war would have been avoided.
The US has pushed red lines too, for example Cuba in the past and present. We just reiterated to China that them having a military base there is a red line.
Russia doesn't respect borders? Biden has just opened more military bases inside of Syria against their will, Iraq is demanding that all US forces leave and Biden laughs, etc...
Russia already invaded, so maybe if Ukraine joins NATO, Russia will back off since that would mean every other NATO country has to fight Russia? Ukraine is a very corrupt country and I'm sure that's why they were not allowed to join NATO in years past.
The more members in Europe, the less reliance on US, so there is that.
Russkie mafioso already attacked Ukraine, so the talk about red lines is meaningless
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Is like blaming you for your reaction if I park a tank in from of your house and started talking crap about you.
if Ukraine was admitted to NATO and Russia was still at war within Ukraine and according to NATO the US would also be at war with Russia on day one of Ukraine being admitted.
