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Think in these terms. A medical doctor studies the functions of two bodies, the Male and the Female. On the other hand, a Mechanic has to know the functions of many different Automobiles as what makes them tick and how to repair any problems that may arise. He has to know the engine, fuel system (carb or Fuel injection) basic knowledge of the transmission workings, repair the brake system, work on the front end steering etc. and so on. Count the number of brands on the road which will give you an insight of the knowledge/experience needed. Steve
ROTFLMAO!!!! Sure, sure. Next time I send in my donation to St. Jude's, I'll be sure to enclose a note "what y'all really need is some auto mechanics to cure leukemia."
LOL. What about veterinarians? They have to work on all kinds of "bodies". Can a vet compete with the exalted auto mechanic?
kt13/carolinabred/stevebagu- I couldnt agree more with each of you. Here's my 2 cents.
-The further we progress as a civilization, the more we are required to know. Look at kids having to take luggage to school to manage homework as example. Being competant in a complicated world is a feat unto itself.
-discerning truth from lies in that volume becomes impossible if standards aren't maintained, and they haven't been maintained.
-rewards in society don't neccessarily come to those who are most intelligent. Thats a reflection of what society values, which is an indicator unto itself how foolish commerce values alone can be. apples and oranges separations exist even when they're equally needed. variables in intelligence sets aren't rewarded with parity. The volume of knowledge requirements for ordinary farmer to be successful is the equivalent to CEO/PhD level, but is often not given the esteem nor $ they rightfully deserve.
-integral educations explored by spiral dynamics theory promote the rennaisance man that society seems to be demanding of people. Of course those skills won't be mastered by all, but therein lies our full measure of assets and shortcomings.
I think gardiner has much to offer in reforming education systems to deal with expansive civlization and account better where peoples skills are, and which proffessions best suit them. Somehow, our collective intelligence needs to work more cooperatively and less partitioned away from each other in zero sum power struggles for influence.
kt13/carolinabred/stevebagu- I couldnt agree more with each of you. Here's my 2 cents.
-The further we progress as a civilization, the more we are required to know. Look at kids having to take luggage to school to manage homework as example. Being competant in a complicated world is a feat unto itself.
-discerning truth from lies in that volume becomes impossible if standards aren't maintained, and they haven't been maintained.
-rewards in society don't neccessarily come to those who are most intelligent. Thats a reflection of what society values, which is an indicator unto itself how foolish commerce values alone can be. apples and oranges separations exist even when they're equally needed. variables in intelligence sets aren't rewarded with parity. The volume of knowledge requirements for ordinary farmer to be successful is the equivalent to CEO/PhD level, but is often not given the esteem nor $ they rightfully deserve.
-integral educations explored by spiral dynamics theory promote the rennaisance man that society seems to be demanding of people. Of course those skills won't be mastered by all, but therein lies our full measure of assets and shortcomings.
I think gardiner has much to offer in reforming education systems to deal with expansive civlization and account better where peoples skills are, and which proffessions best suit them. Somehow, our collective intelligence needs to work more cooperatively and less partitioned away from each other in zero sum power struggles for influence.
What you are proposing is a beautiful theory of human cooperation in some future time where we can all use ESP to communicate. Sadly, even with common vision and the best of intentions we are destined for folly. In this age of mistrust, it is better to have specialists with credentials we respect to do their jobs. I would never choose a naturopath over an MD, for example, because I KNOW that MD has every lawyer, AMA auditor, and administrator up her a$% looking for mistakes. No one cares what a naturopath does, so he is less accountable for his mistakes.
- Tend to agree with OP that a large chunk of our citizens fit somewhere in a range that comprises everything from huge morons through to those who merely are way uninformed.
- Is it a spoof or are those people you see on Jay Leno's "Jay Walking" segments really so grossly uniformed or dumb they can't even recognize prominent faces like Dick Cheney, Barack Obama or others?
- One thing that bugs me is the bigotry I still see, sometimes in my own family, and in the hateful emails that make the rounds, especially since Obama is running for office. Are we still that bigoted in this nation? Do people just pass that crap on to others to appear funny and "cool?" I find nothing cool or funny about it. Bigotry is one of the dumbest things on earth and when taken to its end extremes often turns genocidal.
- What about all those women screaming at musicians, throwing underwear, showing their chests, etc. How dumb is THAT! I still recall those films of totally HYSTERICAL girls shrieking at the Beatles in 1964. Good grief.
- I cringe at stereotypical Appalachian rednecks who are proud of their poverty and ignorance. There is NOTHING appealing about stupidity or living in poverty for generations down in the sticks. Same goes for those black and white folks I've seen living in fetid inner city ghetto's.
- Then there's peer pressure or group-think; the "everyone's doing it" or "keep up with the Jones's." Just because Dad has a houseboat DOESN'T mean I must own one. If I want a houseboat, I'll charter or rent one, then walk away from it when I'm done; rather than eat the cost of owning I'll keep MY money in MY accounts. I know it's human nature to seek acceptance into the "group" (whatever that group is about) but I find it refreshing when people THINK for themselves and act in their own best interest, not worrying about what others will think of them.
- Rigid thinking or close-mindedness is another form of bad thinking and/or stupidity; the "because we always did it that way" crowd. No sense trying to reason with them, their minds are shut like a drum. Best example of that stereotype was Johnny Carson performing skits as "Floyd R Turbo." These people fit a definition of insanity that says you are insane if you do the same thing over and over yet expect different results.
So much for the negative stuff.
Here's what I like: Logical People. Engineers are about my favorite group of people. Peer-reviewed Science is about as good as it gets, stuff you can really hang your hat on as being FACT or TRUTH.
Here's a short story that illustrates what I consider to be a healthy intellect at work: An Optimist, a Pessimist, and an Engineer were looking at glass that was half full of water. The Optimist says "Oh goody, my glass is half full." The Pessimist says: "Rats, my glass is half empty." The Engineer says "Hey, you guys have a wrong-sized glass for the water you have."
I doubt any intellectualls that have time to visit ths forums. But then they really don't drive the world or the economy overall.Idon't even think they would consider running for president.,They are more likely the people that serve a president.Prsidents come people who spend their lifes on devloping a network of supporters. They are more the truman with their hands in the political tricks of the trade.Most successful peole are very risk orientated people and driven; most intellectuals are either in the sciences or in colleges.They tend to work for the risk takers and the driven who supply the money.Their politics are mostly driven by funding for what they do.More and more intellectuals now produce television prorams to fund what they are interested in and we watch.If you have ever studied scientist all working oin the same theory the history is filled with envy and personal greed for fame many times.
- Tend to agree with OP that a large chunk of our citizens fit somewhere in a range that comprises everything from huge morons through to those who merely are way uninformed.
- Is it a spoof or are those people you see on Jay Leno's "Jay Walking" segments really so grossly uniformed or dumb they can't even recognize prominent faces like Dick Cheney, Barack Obama or others?
- One thing that bugs me is the bigotry I still see, sometimes in my own family, and in the hateful emails that make the rounds, especially since Obama is running for office. Are we still that bigoted in this nation? Do people just pass that crap on to others to appear funny and "cool?" I find nothing cool or funny about it. Bigotry is one of the dumbest things on earth and when taken to its end extremes often turns genocidal.
- What about all those women screaming at musicians, throwing underwear, showing their chests, etc. How dumb is THAT! I still recall those films of totally HYSTERICAL girls shrieking at the Beatles in 1964. Good grief.
- I cringe at stereotypical Appalachian rednecks who are proud of their poverty and ignorance. There is NOTHING appealing about stupidity or living in poverty for generations down in the sticks. Same goes for those black and white folks I've seen living in fetid inner city ghetto's.
- Then there's peer pressure or group-think; the "everyone's doing it" or "keep up with the Jones's." Just because Dad has a houseboat DOESN'T mean I must own one. If I want a houseboat, I'll charter or rent one, then walk away from it when I'm done; rather than eat the cost of owning I'll keep MY money in MY accounts. I know it's human nature to seek acceptance into the "group" (whatever that group is about) but I find it refreshing when people THINK for themselves and act in their own best interest, not worrying about what others will think of them.
- Rigid thinking or close-mindedness is another form of bad thinking and/or stupidity; the "because we always did it that way" crowd. No sense trying to reason with them, their minds are shut like a drum. Best example of that stereotype was Johnny Carson performing skits as "Floyd R Turbo." These people fit a definition of insanity that says you are insane if you do the same thing over and over yet expect different results.
So much for the negative stuff.
Here's what I like: Logical People. Engineers are about my favorite group of people.
Here's a short story that illustrates what I consider to be a healthy intellect at work: An Optimist, a Pessimist, and an Engineer were looking at glass that was half full of water. The Optimist says "Oh goody, my glass is half full." The Pessimist says: "Rats, my glass is half empty." The Engineer says "Hey, you guys have a wrong-sized glass for the water you have."
Logic RULES! Education LIBERATES!
If you want to see what happens when logic goes awry, get to know someone with autism sometime! Moderation is the key, and maintaining a diverse population of artists, engineers, helpers, cleaners, builders, thinkers, etc... is what creates a great society. Americans have traditionally done well at this, but I fear that NCLB is putting too much emphasis on math/science and non-critical reading. You may have your society full of engineers, but I don't think we'll be happy.
I doubt any intellectualls that have time to visit ths forums. But then they really don't drive the world or the economy overall.Idon't even think they would consider running for president.,They are more likely the people that serve a president.Prsidents come people who spend their lifes on devloping a network of supporters. They are more the truman with their hands in the political tricks of the trade.Most successful peole are very risk orientated people and driven; most intellectuals are either in the sciences or in colleges.They tend to work for the risk takers and the driven who supply the money.Their politics are mostly driven by funding for waht they do.
Woodrow Wilson was a brilliant man with a PhD, and the president of Princeton. His ideas led to the formation of the League of Nations (predecessor of the UN). Clinton was and is also a very, very smart cookie, and let's not forget he balanced the budget WHILE successfully hiding his numerous affairs from the country and his wife. Sadly, this is often the case with geniuses. Great thinkers, awful family men and women.
If you want to see what happens when logic goes awry, get to know someone with autism sometime! Moderation is the key, and maintaining a diverse population of artists, engineers, helpers, cleaners, builders, thinkers, etc... is what creates a great society. Americans have traditionally done well at this, but I fear that NCLB is putting too much emphasis on math/science and non-critical reading. You may have your society full of engineers, but I don't think we'll be happy.
Shoot, I don't want a society of engineers, nor did I ask for one. I'd love to see skilled trades-people or non-professionals who ARE educated enough to avoid the bigotries, myths and other nonsense that fills the heads of people these days; people educated enough to raise great kids as well as do great work, no matter what color their collar.
I'm thinking in terms of the skilled AND smart guys you see on "This Old House" who KNOW why it makes sense to do this or that, not just that a set of plans call for this sized door header or a certain size and type of fastener, etc.
Good example is on Food Network, where Alton Brown explains the science of HOW various food substances work. Viewers gain an understanding of how and why it turns out well, (or NOT well) as opposed to those shows where you just watch some cook throw stuff in a pot and out comes Bouillabaisse.
Diversity is essential to successful and vibrant civilizations. No matter what calling a person is in, including Housewives/Moms, I have great respect for those whose approach is from a strong grounding in the underlying knowledge for the task. A perspective of "any job worth doing is worth doing right" and to me that takes unbiased knowledge of what you're doing and why you do it a certain way.
Last edited by Mike from back east; 06-05-2008 at 01:28 PM..
Shoot, I don't want a society of engineers, nor did I ask for one. I'd love to see skilled trades-people who ARE educated enough to avoid the bigotries, myths and other nonsense that fills the heads of people these days; people educated enough to raise great kids as well as do great work.
I'm thinking in terms of the skilled AND smart guys you see on "This Old House" who KNOW why it makes sense to do this or that, not just that a set of plans call for this sized door header or a certain size and type of fastener, etc.
Good example is on Food Network, where Alton Brown explains the science of HOW various food substances work. Viewers gain an understanding of how and why it turns out well, (or NOT well) as opposed to those shows where you just watch some cook throw stuff in a pot and out comes Bouillabaisse.
Diversity is essential to successful and vibrant civilizations. No matter what calling a person is in, including Housewives/Moms, I have great respect for those whose approach is from a strong grounding in the underlying knowledge for the task. My perspective is of "any job worth doing is worth doing right" and to me that takes unbiased knowledge of what you're doing and why you need to do it a certain way.
Mike- I have a deep admiration of engineers and tend to think like them (mostly because I've worked with them lots in industry). They do have their limitations and biases at times. Architects would be nowhere without a master carpenter for instance. Would just be another pipe dream...
Success in those traditional fields seems to lean more and more on branching out dual specializations- Engineers are required to see elaborate cost benefit equations. DRs are now required to run general practice as a business for instance. Good thing? Bad thing? All depends on solution applied, and if the solution undermines the primary proffession.
Values part of your statement- we as individuals can choose not to promote & participate, and hopefully commerce/media will catch on about lost market share. It's not clear enough to them when cable packages are bundled who clicked off the station. Not as obvious as the stock markets ticker tape.
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Can't resist commenting on this one
