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Jeez..I agree with you!
I was attempting to answer your question as to why China is currently 'hated' and Japan is not. During WWII China was not hated and the Japanese were villified for their crimes against Chinese women in particular. However, as time passes peoples (especially Americans) memories get a tad fuzzy. I am not in any way excusing Japanese behaviour during their occupation of China, Korea, Indonesia or the Phillipines. I was explaining why the modern focus has left Japan and has gone to China. Who you have to admit right here and right now are not exactly the paragons of humane treatment of their own people (lets not even mention Tibet!). I am not downing the Chinese, I am downing their current leadership. Which by the way is doing great things by opening up to more personal freedoms. Still, they have a way to go....don't you agree?
Between the Sino Japanese wars, the Opiums wars, the Japanese Occupation and the Nationalists looting their treasuries, the Chinese have had a lot of ground to cover.
If I come over to your house, take your money, and do the unspeakable things THEY did and then turn around and ask why you are not living up to my standards, it seems a bit -- ironic. And my only excuse is I don't recall.
Wait a minute there Bob, don't blame "the West" for what the British did.
The United States had an influential, if somewhat naive and blundering, China lobby that sought justice for China. From here we get into a confusing thicket of Chinese-American politics.
Now I don't wanna be a slandering or a libeling anyone, but I read that Astor or one of the other Robber Barrons was in on the action too.
It was not just the Brits either. The Portuguese (Macao), the Dutch, the French, Belgians, Germans (Qing Dao)...
BTW, the Americans did send substantial money to China to help fight the Japanese in the 40s. However, one account I read said the Nationalists pocketed the dough.
BTW2: Thanks everyone for all your input
Last edited by Bob The Builder; 06-12-2008 at 11:58 AM..
Between the Sino Japanese wars, the Opiums wars, the Japanese Occupation and the Nationalists looting their treasuries, the Chinese have had a lot of ground to cover.
If I come over to your house, take your money, and do the unspeakable things THEY did and then turn around and ask why you are not living up to my standards, it seems a bit -- ironic. And my only excuse is I don't recall.
I answered a specific question, or perhaps I misunderstood the question? I thought it was " why now is China hated and not Japan" I had no idea you meant "why is China continually victimized throughout history by European and Asian countries alike" Had I known that was what you meant, I may have worded my answer differently
And yes, for the record the Opium Wars were devious and disgusting.
But it also cannot be denied that the current (and by that I mean --NOW) human rights violations going on in China are not fair, nor right and are particularily despicable because it is the Chinese government inflicted it upon its own people. You know, the Chinese! Admitting that doesn't negate the Japanese war crimes of WWII , and hell all that came before that.
I answered a specific question, or perhaps I misunderstood the question? I thought it was " why now is China hated and not Japan" I had no idea you meant "why is China continually victimized throughout history by European and Asian countries alike" Had I known that was what you meant, I may have worded my answer differently
And yes, for the record the Opium Wars were devious and disgusting.
But it also cannot be denied that the current (and by that I mean --NOW) human rights violations going on in China are not fair, nor right and are particularily despicable because it is the Chinese government inflicted it upon its own people. You know, the Chinese! Admitting that doesn't negate the Japanese war crimes of WWII , and hell all that came before that.
No, you had it almost right. More like why is China so hated and Japan can do no wrong?
I was raising the another point that the human rights violations in general occur because China has had a really tough road to recovery in addition to some self inflicted set backs. They have been looted by the Nationalists and left with having to feed the poor masses with little infra structure, money or expertise.
Specifically though, what human rights violations NOW compare to what was inflicted on them by those who now criticize them?
Last edited by Bob The Builder; 06-12-2008 at 12:58 PM..
No, you had it almost right. More like why is China so hated and Japan can do no wrong?
I was raising the another point that the human rights violations in general occur because China has had a really tough road to recovery in addition to some self inflicted set backs. They have been looted by the Nationalists and left with having to feed the poor masses with little infra structure, money or expertise.
Specifically though, what human rights violations NOW compare to what was inflicted on them by those who now criticize them?
Well, enforced abortions spring quickly to mind as do the imprisonment of political dissidents as well as the imprisonment of Christians and falun gong practicioners and of course Tibetan buddhist monks. And the Tianamen Square demonstrators --- still languishing in prison!
And who can forget the governments rather callous treatment of the parents of children who were killed in the Earthquake? They tried to protest the shoddy workmanship of the school buildings but were denied, rather forcibly.
Again, I say that Japan has reparations to make to China as well as Korea and any and all islands and nations it occuppied. They were cruel overlords and it is outrageous that they have never acknowledged their behavior much less made a formal apology. However, this does not excuse current Chinese policies of repression of religion, politics, the internet(!), and of the individual.
Currently Japan is not oppressing anybody. That is why they are *currently* not in the hot seat. China is. That is all I am trying to say.
Now, if you want to talk about WWII again ----- clearly that is another matter.
Well, enforced abortions spring quickly to mind as do the imprisonment of political dissidents as well as the imprisonment of Christians and falun gong practicioners and of course Tibetan buddhist monks. And the Tianamen Square demonstrators --- still languishing in prison!
And who can forget the governments rather callous treatment of the parents of children who were killed in the Earthquake? They tried to protest the shoddy workmanship of the school buildings but were denied, rather forcibly.
Again, I say that Japan has reparations to make to China as well as Korea and any and all islands and nations it occuppied. They were cruel overlords and it is outrageous that they have never acknowledged their behavior much less made a formal apology. However, this does not excuse current Chinese policies of repression of religion, politics, the internet(!), and of the individual.
Currently Japan is not oppressing anybody. That is why they are *currently* not in the hot seat. China is. That is all I am trying to say.
Now, if you want to talk about WWII again ----- clearly that is another matter.
Thanks for hanging with me on this thread!
I have my own opinions about the human rights violations you listed. Some of these are quite overblown by a media anxious to point out the flaws, but that is for another thread. I believe that as China progresses/recovers these issues will fade away. But China has a Billion plus people to feed and house and needs to do things their way.
I wonder if we do more abortions in the US than they do in China.
Tibet and Falun Gong. The following is what China is fearful of.
Pictured is HHDL and the leader of Aum Shinrikyo - Wikipedia who now sits on death row in Japan for leading a Buddhist Church that actually wanted to kill everyone in the world but themselves. But this is for another thread too.
As far as reparations go, what does China do with a few Yen? £s?
Perhaps the World would see a better China if the West and Japan would be forthright and formally apologize for it's own actions. At this point, China does not need blood money. They could snap our economy like a twig. But they won't because they behave better than that.
From my vantage point, I see critics expecting exemplary behavior from China that are very accepting of egregious behavior from their "friends", but get very nit picky with their new creditors.
Last edited by Bob The Builder; 06-12-2008 at 02:24 PM..
And some of you are probably, as we speak, screaming "It's not the SAME!"
And I know it isn't. But might that be what denial feels like?
It isn't the same. The A-bomb was dropped on those two cities to end a war which Japan started. If Japan didn't start it, those two cities wouldn't have been bombed.
And it should be pointed out that more Japanese were killed by conventional bombing than by the two A-bombs dropped.
It isn't the same. The A-bomb was dropped on those two cities to end a war which Japan started. If Japan didn't start it, those two cities wouldn't have been bombed.
And it should be pointed out that more Japanese were killed by conventional bombing than by the two A-bombs dropped.
Hi Fleet
Carolina was trying to make the point that we in the US deny doing wrongful things like Slavery, Genocide of the Native Americans, Jim Crow, Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Perhaps there was a denial of the genocide, but the American public has no denial of the others.
Perhaps she means we deny it was wrong in which case you are making such a denial.
Whether dropping the A Bombs were right or wrong is not the issue. That is another thread somewhere.
In the Japanese Atrocities realm, I don't see ANY way to deny it was wrong. People just ignore it. It is uncomfortable. If your best friend is a drug dealer, its wrong, you can't deny it, so you let is go and ignore. I thought we were better than that. Yet we expect China to be behave better.
Last edited by Bob The Builder; 06-12-2008 at 02:41 PM..
I have my own opinions about the human rights violations you listed. Some of these are quite overblown by a media anxious to point out the flaws, but that is for another thread. I believe that as China progresses/recovers these issues will fade away. But China has a Billion plus people to feed and house and needs to do things their way.
I think you are right about this. As China regulates its economic and democratic growth spurt, I think things will significantly improve for the average Chinese citizen. Not sure about Tibetans though.
I wonder if we do more abortions in the US than they do in China.
Do we really need to ponder the fundamental difference between a woman choosing an abortion and a woman undergoing an abortion against her will? Seriously?!
Tibet and Falun Gong. The following is what China is fearful of.
Pictured is HHDL and the leader of Aum Shinrikyo - Wikipedia who now sits on death row in Japan for leading a Buddhist Church that actually wanted to kill everyone in the world but themselves.
I thought that picture was doctored?
As far as reparations go, what does China do with a few Yen? £s?
Hmmm, reparations was a wrong choice of words. I didn't mean monetary. I meant more of a formal apology that outlined in clear details what was done to the Chinese during occupation of the Japanese. I wouldn't mind seeing this delivered to any living survivors of Nanking. Perhaps a monument paid for by the Japanese wouldn't be out of line, either....
Perhaps the World would see a better China if the West and Japan would be forthright and formally apologize for it's own actions. At this point, China does not need blood money.
Yep.
From my vantage point, I see critics expecting behavior from China that are very accepting of egregious behavior from their "friends", but get very nit picky with their new creditors.
People expect modern countries to behave in a modern fashion. Clearly the US is not pure as the driven snow in that either. But in a very weird and very real way the Japanese are -- right now. And that is what we were talking about why now are the Japanese forgiven and the Chinese demonized for relatively minor human rights violations (at least in relation to Nanking).
Now as to why Japan got a free pass.....I wonder if a factor wasn't that China was a closed society for so long pretty soon after WWII. China was a big shrouded mystery -- nothing scares people more then the unnkown. And if memory serves, Chinese government rhetoric of the time certainly wasn't especially friendly to the west. Lots and lots of reasons, maybe none to good but there you have it. On the other hand, Japan was very interested in rebounding with US help. Plus, Japans proximity to USSR during the cold war was a very good reason for the US to let bygones be bygones.
So, where does that leave us? Japan needs to address its war crimes if it is ever to make a real peace with surrounding nations. The US cannot make Japan do anything. We were not directly affected by it (although I do believe Japan at one point was trying to rewrite the whole Pearl Harbor attack into something that made them look less....warlike) Anyways, this is a job for Chinese (and Korean and Indonsian and Philipino and and and and....) diplomats. I hope they find a way to get a measure of satisfaction.
Carolina was trying to make the point that we in the US deny things like Slavery, Genocide of the Native Americans, Jim Crow, Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Perhaps there was a denial of the genocide, but the American public has no denial of the others.
Whether dropping the A Bombs were right or wrong is not the issue. That is another thread somewhere.
And that is the issue we are dealing with in international opinion. A new report just released shows international opinion of America is at an all time low, because other countries see us quick to jump on the actions of others but we gloss over or rationalize the actions of our country.
The report blames specific policies for falling approval ratings, notably the war in Iraq, support for some repressive governments, a perception of bias in the Israeli-Palestinian dispute and the "torture and abuse of prisoners" in violation of treaty obligations.
It says "disappointment and bitterness" has grown from the perception that much-vaunted US values "have been selectively ignored by successive administrations" for national security or economic ends.
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