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And that is the issue we are dealing with in international opinion. A new report just released shows international opinion of America is at an all time low, because other countries see us quick to jump on the actions of others but we gloss over or rationalize the actions of our country.
Ummmm....bily4, the world cheered the A bomb attacks on Japan because it meant the war over and they would not have to send their boys to help with the invasion of the Japanese Islands. In other words a huge bloodbath on top of years of bloodbaths was avoided.
The present low opinions you speak of have nothing to do with WWII, unless one wants to make a belated attempt to defend German and Japanese Fascism.
Carolina was trying to make the point that we in the US deny doing wrongful things like Slavery, Genocide of the Native Americans, Jim Crow, Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Perhaps there was a denial of the genocide, but the American public has no denial of the others.
Perhaps she means we deny it was wrong in which case you are making such a denial.
Not everyone in the U.S. denies it. However, there is nothing to "deny" regarding Nagasaki and Hiroshima... it was a war and we ended it which at the time we thought was the best way- fast. And it was the best way because it saved hundreds of thousands of lives- both American and Japanese- had the invasion of Japan set for Nov., 1945 had went ahead.
Not everyone in the U.S. denies it. However, there is nothing to "deny" regarding Nagasaki and Hiroshima... it was a war and we ended it which at the time we thought was the best way- fast. And it was the best way because it saved hundreds of thousands of lives- both American and Japanese- had the invasion of Japan set for Nov., 1945 had went ahead.
Fleet
I am with you. I think it was necessary. Maybe it is not popular in some circles. As I think some things going on today are necessary but not popular in many circles.
In fact some of the things going on in China today are probably necessary too. It depends on your perspective.
Ummmm....bily4, the world cheered the A bomb attacks on Japan because it meant the war over and they would not have to send their boys to help with the invasion of the Japanese Islands. In other words a huge bloodbath on top of years of bloodbaths was avoided.
The present low opinions you speak of have nothing to do with WWII, unless one wants to make a belated attempt to defend German and Japanese Fascism.
Funny how much the World Opinion has changed since then, is it not.
In retrospect however, an argument could certainly be made that dropping bombs that vaporize entire civilian cities may not be the proper action in a War, even if one has the means to do it. Sets a bad precedent, if you catch my drift.
People expect modern countries to behave in a modern fashion. Clearly the US is not pure as the driven snow in that either. But in a very weird and very real way the Japanese are -- right now. And that is what we were talking about why now are the Japanese forgiven and the Chinese demonized for relatively minor human rights violations (at least in relation to Nanking).
Now as to why Japan got a free pass.....I wonder if a factor wasn't that China was a closed society for so long pretty soon after WWII. China was a big shrouded mystery -- nothing scares people more then the unnkown. And if memory serves, Chinese government rhetoric of the time certainly wasn't especially friendly to the west. Lots and lots of reasons, maybe none to good but there you have it. On the other hand, Japan was very interested in rebounding with US help. Plus, Japans proximity to USSR during the cold war was a very good reason for the US to let bygones be bygones.
So, where does that leave us? Japan needs to address its war crimes if it is ever to make a real peace with surrounding nations. The US cannot make Japan do anything. We were not directly affected by it (although I do believe Japan at one point was trying to rewrite the whole Pearl Harbor attack into something that made them look less....warlike) Anyways, this is a job for Chinese (and Korean and Indonsian and Philipino and and and and....) diplomats. I hope they find a way to get a measure of satisfaction.
The picture was not doctored. Victor and Victoria Trimondi our of Munich who BTW still think HHDL is a great guy wrote a book called In The Shadow Of The Dalai Lama which includes outlines all the pretty bad and violent things the Tibetans have done. The Shadow of the Dalai Lama – Part II – 13
But Richard Gere and Sharon Stone don't say bad things about Tibetans.
It is just that we deny. For you to make that comment shows that you believe that they are the perfect modern society. They are not. No society is perfect. USA, Japan or China. It is just that some think they are and are good at convincing other people that they are too.
Last edited by Bob The Builder; 06-12-2008 at 03:41 PM..
Funny how much the World Opinion has changed since then, is it not.
Only by those who seek a cheap shot.
Quote:
In retrospect however, an argument could certainly be made that dropping bombs that vaporize entire civilian cities may not be the proper action in a War, even if one has the means to do it. Sets a bad precedent, if you catch my drift
Nonsense.
If you start a war of of global dominance, enslavement and brutality, as the Japanese willfully and enthusiastically did, then you best accept the consequences of your actions, including your chief advesary developing a weapon and using it after warning you. War is laying waste to the other side until they throw their arms up and surrender. The Japanese would NOT surrender. End of story.
Anyone who actually sits down and studies all the facts, particulary the actions and reactions of the Japanese Junta, cannot help but come to the conclusion that is was the right decision. Since most do not and speak from wishful thinking and emotion, it has become laughable to hear this diatribes.
Funny how much the World Opinion has changed since then, is it not.
In retrospect however, an argument could certainly be made that dropping bombs that vaporize entire civilian cities may not be the proper action in a War, even if one has the means to do it. Sets a bad precedent, if you catch my drift.
Bringing this idea back into my post topic. Would you rather be cut up an inch at a time without anesthesia until you are dead or would you rather be vaporized?
If your civilian city was going to be wiped out, would you rather be vaporized or have a bunch of laughing Japanese solders bury people alive, be a test case for someone sword, be entertained by making you kill your parents, rape your....?
Carolina was trying to make the point that we in the US deny doing wrongful things like Slavery, Genocide of the Native Americans, Jim Crow, Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Perhaps there was a denial of the genocide, but the American public has no denial of the others.
Perhaps she means we deny it was wrong in which case you are making such a denial.
Whether dropping the A Bombs were right or wrong is not the issue. That is another thread somewhere.
In the Japanese Atrocities realm, I don't see ANY way to deny it was wrong. People just ignore it. It is uncomfortable. If your best friend is a drug dealer, its wrong, you can't deny it, so you let is go and ignore. I thought we were better than that. Yet we expect China to be behave better.
Well, first of all, this "she" is a "he". People get that wrong a lot. Must be the way I type.
And I suppose I meant deny or rationalize.
But you're right. That is a discussion for another thread.
The picture was not doctored. Victor and Victoria Trimondi our of Munich who BTW still think HHDL is a great guy wrote a book called In The Shadow Of The Dalai Lama which includes outlines all the pretty bad and violent things the Tibetans have done. The Shadow of the Dalai Lama – Part II – 13
That will be interesting reading, thanks for the link!
But Richard Gere and Sharon Stone don't say bad things about Tibetans.
I have a lot of flaws, but taking celebrities word for anything isn't one
As far as the Japanese being pure as the driven snow. Four Japanese gang figures got liver transplants at UCLA - Los Angeles Times
There are mafioso types in all countries. Gangbangers, psychopaths and rapists too. The issue at hand is a government sanctioned brutalization of another sovereign nation or its own citizens. Modern Japan is not guilty of that. Again, doesn't excuse past behavior, just explaining why modern China gets human rights violations charges against it and modern Japan does not.
It is just that we deny. For you to make that comment shows that you believe that they are the perfect modern society. They are not. No society is perfect. USA, Japan or China. It is just that some think they are and are good at convincing other people that they are too.
Japan is not invading other countries at this time. We all can't say that
We need to draw the line of past vs present in this discussion. Japan was without a doubt an imperialistic menace that committed horrific war crimes everywhere they went.
But, they aren't now.
China was victimized by the Japanese and before that the Brittish.
But, they aren't now.
China is a powerful nation. It needs to start pulling its weight against Japan to demand an apology. To demand an accounting.
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