Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
As you might know, I am a conservative, for many different reasons. One thing that strikes me about Liberalism is that it seems very contradcitory. I don't understand the reasoning, so maybe some more left-leaning people can help me out:
When I read posts made by more liberal people, the overriding theme seems to be that man has a responsiblity to share with one another. In principal, I would think most conservatives think this as well, but Liberals tend to see the government as a tool for equalization. The concepts of "sharing" and being "entitled" to one anothers talents and resources seem to be central to Left-leaning thought from an economic point of view...
But then there is the social...
When you start to get to the topics of society beyond economics, it seems the ideas of cohesiveness and unity fly right out the window. In the last 40 years of post sixties liberation, it seems that the fire of racial identification, sexual selfishness, and a desire to establish oneself's needs above the greater whole of humanity take center stage. Left-leaning people tend to have this view of "I am what I am and screw if it damages society". Family and Morality seem to be frowned upon.
What strikes me is that these two views of liberalism serve as cross purposes. How are we as a nation supposed to rally around UHC for instance when we have people like Jeremiah Wright spewing hate? How does encouraging one to forgo family serve to stregthen bonds? How does descarding religon establish a more kinder society? Many people demand for us to come together yet also serve to tear our society apart. I don't get it.
The more united a nation is, weither it be religously, culturally, racially, socially, philisophically, etc, the more liberal it becomes. When you divide people, it serves to destroy that bond and sabatoge liberalism.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,329 posts, read 54,389,283 times
Reputation: 40736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shizzles
As you might know, I am a conservative, for many different reasons. One thing that strikes me about Liberalism is that it seems very contradcitory. I don't understand the reasoning, so maybe some more left-leaning people can help me out:
When I read posts made by more liberal people, the overriding theme seems to be that man has a responsiblity to share with one another. In principal, I would think most conservatives think this as well, but Liberals tend to see the government as a tool for equalization. The concepts of "sharing" and being "entitled" to one anothers talents and resources seem to be central to Left-leaning thought from an economic point of view...
But then there is the social...
When you start to get to the topics of society beyond economics, it seems the ideas of cohesiveness and unity fly right out the window. In the last 40 years of post sixties liberation, it seems that the fire of racial identification, sexual selfishness, and a desire to establish oneself's needs above the greater whole of humanity take center stage. Left-leaning people tend to have this view of "I am what I am and screw if it damages society". Family and Morality seem to be frowned upon.
What strikes me is that these two views of liberalism serve as cross purposes. How are we as a nation supposed to rally around UHC for instance when we have people like Jeremiah Wright spewing hate? How does encouraging one to forgo family serve to stregthen bonds? How does descarding religon establish a more kinder society? Many people demand for us to come together yet also serve to tear our society apart. I don't get it.
Left-leaning people tend to have this view of "I am what I am and screw if it damages society". [/b]When you divide people, it serves to destroy that bond and sabatoge liberalism.
So what's the deal? How does liberalism work?
If you're serious about understanding I think your best first step is to give up the false premises. Two that pop out to me are " Left-leaning people tend to have this view of 'I am what I am and screw if it damages society'. " and " Left-leaning people tend to have this view of "I am what I am and screw if it damages society".
One cannot live without obligation; it is the price we pay, so to speak, to live in civilized society. Still, our acknowledgment of the social contract is, for the most part, one-sided; that is, we readily acknowledge our own right of entitlement, but we are not so ready to recognize our debt to society. Laurence Sterne, I think, expressed it most cogently in one of his sermons thus:
For none of us liveth to himself. Romans xiv. 7.
“To the honor of human nature, the scripture teaches us that God made man upright - and though he has since found out many inventions, which have much dishonoured this noble structure, yet the foundation of it stands as it was, - the whole frame and design of it carried on upon social virtue and public spirit, and every member of us so evidently supported by this strong cement, that we may say with the apostle, that no man liveth to himself. In whatsoever light we view him, we shall see evidently, that there is no station or condition in his life, - no office or relation, or circumstance, but there arises from it so many ties, so many indispensable claims upon him, as must perpetually carry him beyond selfish consideration, and shew plainly, that was a man foolishly wicked enough to design to live to himself alone, he would either find it impracticable, or he would lose, at least, the very thing that made life itself desirable. We know that our creator, like an all-wise contriver in this, as in all other of his works has planted in mankind such appetites and inclinations as were suitable for their state; that is, such as would naturally lead him to the love of society and friendship, without which he would have been found in a worse condition than the very beasts of the field. No one therefore who lives in society, can be said to live to himself, - he lives to his GOD, - to his king, and his country. - He lives to his family, to his friends, to all under his trust, and in a word, he lives to the whole race of mankind; whatsoever has the character of man, and wears the same image of GOD that he does, is truly his brother, and has a just claim to his kindness. - That this is the case in fact, as well as in theory, may be made plain to anyone, who has made any observations upon human life. - When we have traced it through all its connections, - view’d it under the several obligations which succeed each other in a perpetual rotation through the different states of a hasty pilgrimage, we shall find that these do operate so strongly upon it, and lay us justly under so many restraints, that we are every hour sacrificing something to society, in return for the benefits we receive from it.â€
- Laurence Sterne, “Vindication of Human Nature,†Sermons, (1760)
In the last 40 years of post sixties liberation, it seems that the fire of racial identification, sexual selfishness, and a desire to establish oneself's needs above the greater whole of humanity take center stage. Left-leaning people tend to have this view of "I am what I am and screw if it damages society". Family and Morality seem to be frowned upon.
See, this is something many conservatives will harken back to - those Golden Days of Leave It to Beaver. But when you do a little research, those days were not so Golden. There was monumental sexual repression and gay bashing going on even at the highest levels of government, overt in your face racism, and the covert understanding that keeping all those "Others" in their place is all well and good.... under the Proud Banner of Conservatism.
Which is another reason that "Conservatism" as a brand is dying today in this country. Above and beyond the past 8 years of destructive governance by Bush and 6 years of a tag-along Republican Congress. Who were the true "Conservatives" this past election cycle? Tancredo? Ron Paul? How did they do?
Other Races are finally starting to get some equal footing in this country. Gays are finally able to come out of the closet without getting their heads bashed in, in most areas of the country anyway. Those that choose to stay in the closet very typically have their own private gay-bashing agenda, like Senator Craig.
When Conservatives talk about Family and Morality and Religion, they mean their own versions. Otherwise it is all "Dangers of MultiCulturalism" and "Why do Gays insist on the idea of marriage like the rest of us". Conservatives can pretend otherwise, but their party remains as one that caters to WASPs and always will to their ultimate demise.
One cannot live without obligation; it is the price we pay, so to speak, to live in civilized society. Still, our acknowledgment of the social contract is, for the most part, one-sided; that is, we readily acknowledge our own right of entitlement, but we are not so ready to recognize our debt to society.
This is fine and worthy, however, the problem with Socialism, which is what we are really talking about, is that:
1) It requires the government to forcefully extort money from individuals to pay for welfare programs
2) The welfare programs almost never work and only create huge bureaucracies and, more importantly, they make the recipients dependent which saps them of their self-worth.
In the last 40 years of post sixties liberation, it seems that the fire of racial identification, sexual selfishness, and a desire to establish oneself's needs above the greater whole of humanity take center stage. Left-leaning people tend to have this view of "I am what I am and screw if it damages society". Family and Morality seem to be frowned upon.
See, this is something many conservatives will harken back to - those Golden Days of Leave It to Beaver. But when you do a little research, those days were not so Golden. There was monumental sexual repression and gay bashing going on even at the highest levels of government, overt in your face racism, and the covert understanding that keeping all those "Others" in their place is all well and good.... under the Proud Banner of Conservatism.
Which is another reason that "Conservatism" as a brand is dying today in this country. Above and beyond the past 8 years of destructive governance by Bush and 6 years of a tag-along Republican Congress. Who were the true "Conservatives" this past election cycle? Tancredo? Ron Paul? How did they do?
Other Races are finally starting to get some equal footing in this country. Gays are finally able to come out of the closet without getting their heads bashed in, in most areas of the country anyway. Those that choose to stay in the closet very typically have their own private gay-bashing agenda, like Senator Craig.
When Conservatives talk about Family and Morality and Religion, they mean their own versions. Otherwise it is all "Dangers of MultiCulturalism" and "Why do Gays insist on the idea of marriage like the rest of us". Conservatives can pretend otherwise, but their party remains as one that caters to WASPs and always will to their ultimate demise.
last time I checked, the 1965 voting rights act has a lot of republican signatures on it.
People like Senator Palpatien do not speak for all of us, just like Stalin does not speak to you.
What you'll find if you were to explore the conservative mindset is that civil rights are looked highly upon, as is non-racism. Yes, republicans do have some racist voters, but then again, so do democrats. The problem is that minority communites are in serious trouble, and some of that trouble is due to the mindset of self-destruction and selfishness. Conservatives don't believe in their hearts that non-whites are inferior, just that the message of personal responsiblity is being lost upon a generation of young people. Liberalism teaches needs to oneself on a social level take precedence to society at large. More than once, left-leaning posters have said that if one finds themselves having less than another, that theft is morally justified. How is that looking out for society?
The "Conservative = racist" mindset is bull and has been debunked time and again. Blue states have higher per capita hate crime rates than red states.
I think we all understand the value of human "rights". What we've lost understanding of is the sense of human "responsiblites". Contrary to modern thinking, these are not oxymorons, but in fact the ying and yang of civilization. I could sit here in my Autistic being and claim SSI for the rest of my life, but I choose not to, not only becuase I'm better than that, but becuase I have a responsiblity to the Taxpayers of the United States and to God to be a fruitful, kind, and hardworking citizen. So I go and work, period.
I know the past wasn't all pretty, but let's be real here, people did care. Black people own homes, stores and companies and carried themselves with dignaty and pride, which is why the walls of hate came tumbling down in the first place.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,329 posts, read 54,389,283 times
Reputation: 40736
Quote:
Originally Posted by daminos
This is fine and worthy, however, the problem with Socialism, which is what we are really talking about, is that:
1) It requires the government to forcefully extort money from individuals to pay for welfare programs
This would be as opposed to forcefully extorting money from individuals to pay for their corporate welfare programs and to fund delusions of being masters of the world?
Quote:
Originally Posted by daminos
2) The welfare programs almost never work and only create huge bureaucracies and, more importantly, they make the recipients dependent which saps them of their self-worth.
I am all for personal responsibility, trust me. But from most of what I read self- proclaimed Conservatives want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. People want to do away with social security and medicare now, along with any welfare programs, because it just kills them to have to contribute a penny to something outside of themselves and their immediate families; this is what leads to a sense of general mistrust and loss of a sense of community. Universal health care - heck no, because I would have to help people I don't know - even when health care studies by professionals conclude we could acheive this and all still pay less, through a modernization of the health care system holding them to modern business efficiencies and clean up of insurance companies policies and procedures. Even when the current model is imploding and about to break, and is killing American competitiveness and entrepeneurial spirit.
Many people do not comprehend the rate at which American jobs are disappearing and people are losing employment and health benefits, all to the free market and globalization. Take a look in the past decade alone. It is alarming. What should people do if there is no entity to help them through temporary periods where they need assistance? Private charities are not sufficient.
And take a look at the voting patterns by race this past couple of elections and get back to me. Even Hispanics, which had been divided pretty evenly between parties, are swinging away from Republicans again. Too much Macaca talk for their taste.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
- even when health care studies by professionals conclude we could acheive this and all still pay less, through a modernization of the health care system holding them to modern business efficiencies and clean up of insurance companies policies and procedures. Even when the current model is imploding and about to break, and is killing American competitiveness and entrepeneurial spirit.
