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Pure communism is not doomed to fail-- it has not been successfully implemented anywhere ever, so there is no way to know. Marx described communism as a stateless, classless society... Russia was the opposite of stateless and wasn't classless either.
Americans don't understand this because they think that left means more government and right means less, which is laughably simple.
I dont see how you can have collectivism without a state (to avoid misunderstandings, when I say government or state, I mean the person or group thought to have the right to rule/initiate force). Can any collectivist system exist without forcing people into it? Maybe on a small scale where everyone voluntarily joins...are people allowed to opt out of it? If not, someone has to force them to be a part of it (which is authoritarian).
I did not imply that. I was responding to that suggestion. The test may be inaccurate, but it seems pretty easy for me to see authoritarianism and left vs. right as orthogonal, and so interesting, axes on which to plot one's beliefs. Some Tea Party party types like to claim to be right leaning libertarians, they don't want gun controls, but want to control women's bodies and gays' relationships. That sounds authoritarian to me. Others are likely truly live and let live, though right wing.Some lefty types like to be left alone on issues like drugs, their love life, and their religious beliefs, whereas some are very into controlling others through regulations or political correctness. So, they seem to range from libertarian to authoritarian too. Anyhow, I think the two axes are meaningful and interesting for conversation purposes.I have taken this test several times and always plot lefty libertarian. I think we need regulations to protect the vulnerable and the environment, but otherwise, I don't give a damn about your sexuality, religion, or political beliefs. That is your business.
I was trying to answer your question, not suggesting that you were implying anything.
You can have any view on an issue without suggesting that we need a government to enforce that view as a law.
Statements like 'I don't agree with this, but live and let live' fit this description. It is definitely hypocritical to think the government should stay out of your gun closet but refuse to accept gay marriage or crack down on drug use, however.
Political correctness isn't the same thing as demanding that a law be passed to make sure that someone doesn't do or say something, it's basically just criticizing things. These two aren't the same thing even if one does sometimes lead to the other.
Last edited by Spatula City; 11-30-2014 at 05:34 AM..
I dont see how you can have collectivism without a state (to avoid misunderstandings, when I say government or state, I mean the person or group thought to have the right to rule/initiate force). Can any collectivist system exist without forcing people into it? Maybe on a small scale where everyone voluntarily joins...are people allowed to opt out of it? If not, someone has to force them to be a part of it (which is authoritarian).
Of course a collectivist system can exist without forcing people into it. The idea that certain types of work entitle someone to a larger share of the pie isn't some unbreakable law of nature, it's a belief in the same way that 'to each according to his need, from each according to his ability' is a belief.
People can adapt to any system. We already depend on each other to survive... even if we're too detached from what we're doing to realize it, no one is an island. If we were free to depend on each other without being greedy about profit margins, people would probably be much more enthusiastic about helping each other out.
As for 'opting out'... can you opt out of a capitalist society? I mean, if I said 'I don't want any part of this', wandered into the woods and decided I was going to live there, would nobody come and force me to pay taxes, leave someone's land, etc? Would I be able to grow my own food there? Build my own house on it? Make up my own laws?
If you're talking about mass-revolution, then yes, that would be a considerably different story... but that applies to capitalism as well. If say, California decided it wanted to secede and become Communist, I'm pretty sure that the rest of the states would get nervous.
Last edited by Spatula City; 11-30-2014 at 05:38 AM..
Of course a collectivist system can exist without forcing people into it. The idea that certain types of work entitle someone to a larger share of the pie isn't some unbreakable law of nature, it's a belief in the same way that 'to each according to his need, from each according to his ability' is a belief.
People can adapt to any system. We already depend on each other to survive... even if we're too detached from what we're doing to realize it, no one is an island. If we were free to depend on each other without being greedy about profit margins, people would probably be much more enthusiastic about helping each other out.
As for 'opting out'... can you opt out of a capitalist society? I mean, if I said 'I don't want any part of this', wandered into the woods and decided I was going to live there, would nobody come and force me to pay taxes, leave someone's land, etc? Would I be able to grow my own food there? Build my own house on it? Make up my own laws?
If you're talking about mass-revolution, then yes, that would be a considerably different story... but that applies to capitalism as well. If say, California decided it wanted to secede and become Communist, I'm pretty sure that the rest of the states would get nervous.
First, capitalism to me is a true free market, which is just voluntary trade with no force involved...and I think that's the default state of nature. No system needed for that. So opting out of a free market is like opting out of gravity. It exists unless someone prevents it from happening...gravity exists on Earth unless someone creates an anti-gravity chamber to neutralize it (not sure if that's the best example haha but it'll do).
It seems like we agree on a lot of things, but I believe in property rights. If people voluntarily give up those rights to be in a commune, I'm totally fine with it. I personally want to live in a society that truly respects people's right to their body, their time, what they produce, etc. because I see anything else as no different than slavery. That rules out any government, and also any collectivist society.
As I said, I'm fine with people joining a communist society. I'm just not sure it could work on a scale larger than a small community where everyone chooses to be there. Every person would have to buy into that philosophy...once one person decides to not contribute, what happens? Is force used to make them do it or do people just choose not to acknowledge their membership to that society? I'm just against initiating force, so as long as violence isn't used against a non-violent person I'm okay with it.
I wonder if this test isn't skewed to give a certain result. In any case I pretty much fall in line with most people.. the test isn't elaborate enough in it's questioning.... does anyone who takes this actually score up in the area that Obama, Bush, and other mainstream politicians score? Or way up in the upper left Stalin Communism area? Seems like most people score similarly to this...
Economic Left/Right: -5.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.56
I've gotten more liberal on some economic issues as I've aged with about the same level of libertarianism in social issues. It assumes because I believe in discipline, growth, and an amount of hard work that I'm not a 'libertarian' socially.. that all libertarians think and act one way...
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