The real difference: liberal vs conservative

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by odinloki1

This argument for conservatives sounds like ivory tower nonsense. There is always a solution, it just may not please certain people.

I'd like for that guy to go to the starving children of the world, or those parents who watch their children die because of poor health care, and say "we can't come up with a solution that pleases everybody, so we're just not gonna try"

First of all, this mention of "starving children" and "parents watching their child die" is, with all due respect, one of those emotional "arguments" often used by liberals to avoid actually confronting the issue of whether or not their past "solutions" have ever worked as intended. And in fact, not caused more harm than good. (by the way, I would like to know of one single child who has died in the United States because they were deprived of adaquate health care).

But anyway, no, there is often *not" a "solution" to certain problems which are really not so much problems as sad, tragic, conditions that will always exist because human beings are imperfect. There seems to be (consistent with the vision Sowell spoke of) an underlying assumption on the part of liberals ("unconstrained vision") that because conservatives don't embrace mandated government programs to "solve" the "problem" that we dont care about the victims.

This is nonsense. It is just that conservatives (the real type, not neo-cons) believe the best way to help the victims (of whatever) is better realized thru individual action and the workings of the free market (whether economic or social). And also, that there really are not any permanent solutions, only trade-offs.

A classic example of the failure of "solutions" can be found in the War On Poverty.

War on Poverty Revisited by Thomas Sowell -- Capitalism Magazine

[Irishtom29]

Conservatives like to point out the "unintended results" of liberal programs but fail to point out that doing nothing has unintended results too.

I think that it's liberal thought that saved Western Civilization from Communism in the 20th Century, not conservative thought. Without reform you get revolution.

[TKramar]

I give until it hurts. Today, it might "hurt" me to give somebody $2. But if I made six figures, it wouldn't be a pittance. $200 is a pittance for someone who makes six figures.

[LLLL98]

Originally Posted by babyorr9

Look, either people are free. Or they're not. You either trust them to act in their own self interest, or you try to control them. If its the latter, don't be ashamed because its a very commonplace idea in our time. We have relied on government for far too long; In retrospect, we didn't need a King; We didn't need slaves; We didn't need to restrict the rights of women to vote and gay marriage won't bring about the downfall of society. Modern liberals are liberal...when it suits them.

I wouldn't say that I am ashamed that I don't trust people, I would say that it is shameful that there are far too many examples of people not being trustworthy.

And I am not a fan of relying on government, I do not believe in govenment bailouts, I believe that any social welfare programs should be strictly regulated and limited to those who truly need help and have nothing else to turn to. I don't believe in nationalized healthcare, but I do believe that the government needs to take action to ensure that coverage is affordable and available.

I do think that our federal government is way too big and easily corruptible, but they have been given permission by a lazy and apathetic nation to do what they are doing, we the voters have allowed this to happen, blaming the government isn't going to change anything, electing fresh faces every election cycle will hopefully start to keep them a little more honest, but that won't matter if we don't require accountability and transparency in all levels of government.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Irishtom29

Conservatives like to point out the "unintended results" of liberal programs but fail to point out that doing nothing has unintended results too.

If you will give a concrete example of such, then I agree the respective "consequences" might definititely be a "case study" in terms of the visions. And I mean that very respectfully!

I think that it's liberal thought that saved Western Civilization from Communism in the 20th Century, not conservative thought. Without reform you get revolution.

C'mon IrishT, this is taking extreme liberties with the use of the ever changing way the labels "liberal" and "conservative" can be used. Fact is (ok...fact is in my own opinion! LOL) that the belief system which underpins the liberal vision as commonly understood today is not the one that was hostile to communism. Just the opposite in fact.

[Tom9]

As one looks to the future with the depletion of natural resources, exploding human population etc. it seems pretty evident that, like it or not, some form of fascism, or corporatism if you prefer, is the only choice human beings are going to have. Communism for all practical purposes is already dead and democracy is terminal and struggling at this point.

[babyorr9]

Originally Posted by Irishtom29

Conservatives like to point out the "unintended results" of liberal programs but fail to point out that doing nothing has unintended results too.

I think that it's liberal thought that saved Western Civilization from Communism in the 20th Century, not conservative thought. Without reform you get revolution.

You mean like "Better Red Than Dead"? Do you mean FDR's "New Deal" which was an odd mix of socialism and fascism? Oooh, better yet, how about "The Great Society" as we bombed the hell out of Vietnam? What of French and British appeasement which allowed Hitler to build a war machine? (Though not Communist, the idea is still the same) What of Nixonian price controls and Carter's shared sacrifice which destoyed our economy and brought us ever closer to Communism? You're right, the record must speak for itself.