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Well, maybe, but did the discrimination of other groups include not considering them citizens because they were not "white", did this discrimination restrict their right to vote? Did this discrimination force them to have separate eating places, drinking fountains, schools, etc? I think when you say groups were treated "pretty badly", I am not sure what you mean. I am interested to see what you consider comparable discrimination to the treatment of blacks in this country.
My term "pretty badly" is probably not the best term and understates the treatment of what many ethnic groups have endured. What I was trying to imply was that other ethnicities have been discrminated against in American history. Other than Native Americans, nobody has been discriminated against as much as black people have in this country. Perhaps I should have stated that in my post.
When a culture is created in this country (by whites) that prevents a minority group from being educated (such as under slavery), and from being considered a citizen with voting rights, and the ability to hold an office, it takes time for a new generation to grow. It has not been than long since blacks were unable to vote. It has not been that long since laws have been passed that don't allow discrimination. It takes time for society to evolve and for the effects of this discrimination to diminish.
I agree it takes a long time. Generations. But how long is too long? It's been over 40 years since the Voting Rights Act and Affirmative Action have been instituted.
I agree it takes a long time. Generations. But how long is too long? It's been over 40 years since the Voting Rights Act and Affirmative Action have been instituted.
Well, I don't think 40 years is long enough. My parents were in college at that time, so there are still people who were very directly impacted by that, and the next generation is not going to be automatically free and cured of the problems created by the systems of discrimination and segregation.
Its not that I feel that AA is an absolute necessity now, but I do think those who think that because the Voting Rights Act was implemented, and that segregation was abolished, that everything is now alright.
I agree it takes a long time. Generations. But how long is too long? It's been over 40 years since the Voting Rights Act and Affirmative Action have been instituted.
1619 – 1864 = 254 years (slavery)
1864 – 1964 = 100 years (Jim Crow)
1964 – 2008 = 44 years (Civil Rights)
1619 – 2008 = 389 years (blacks arrival in America to present)
Hmmmmm….
354 of 389 year in this land were under LEGALIZED discrimination/oppression.
44 of 389 years in this land has been under ILLEGAL discrimination (Crime is illegal but it still happens….so does racial discrimination.
In other words, 91% of the black existence in these lands has been under legal oppression and 9% of the time has been under illegal discrimination as America has yet to be discrimination free against blacks….and likely never will be.
Based upon this data….I don’t think its fair to expect blacks to have recovered by virtue of time…….just yet.
Those that suggest that because of what happened 100's of years ago - a 100 years ago, they cannot succeed in life - are simply trying to find an excuse for their lack of achievement.
Affirmative Action programs, while perhaps well intentioned originally, are not needed today IMO.
Let people succeed on their own merit - not because of some law gives them an edge.
It is the point that one has to argue based upon the thinking of the time. I noted that blacks were considered 3/5 human because of the apportionment that took place at that time. You seem to be implying that I should be looking at that act from the perception of blacks are viewed today, which hopefully is not sub human, as opposed to how blacks was viewed at the time of the compromise. There were many prominent slave owning politicians who have written extensively about the inferiority of the Negro. So would anyone be surprised that white politicians would not allow blacks to be counted with the full humanity that a white person was to be counted?
No; that is not what I am saying. At all.
I am saying that how black people were viewed by the white majority in 1787 should not have any bearing on how blacks view themselves in 2008. It is indisputable that blacks were seen as sub-human in the 18th and 19th centuries, and somewhat less than the equals of whites in the 20th. That that should define or even have an impact on how blacks view themselves or are viewed by others today is non-sense. In 1787, most people believed that the sun went around the earth. We have moved on from Ptolemny since then, and I think most of us have moved on from the view of black people as less than human.
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I am not viewing the word through a black white prism. I am simply making the case for black people against the injustices and oppression inflicting upon them by white people in this nation. I am not here to argue on behalf of Native Americans, Chinese, and Irish of whomever. The validity of the claims black people have is not in anyway linked to whether other abused parties file claim or not. If you ate a restaurant and got food poisoning, and it could be proved that the food poisoned you, the fact that other poisoned people did not file suit does not make your suit illegitimate. Who else was poisoned is really not relevant when you have the evidence for your claim independent of what happened to others.
Ah, but the discussion about 'reparations,' however you want to frame it, DOES boil down to black and white, doesn't it? This thread is about affirmative action. Much of the freight paid for affirmative action has, in fact, not been white people (look at the sad case of UC Berkeley). And indeed, the impact has not been uniformly shared even by whites - do you think for example, for one second, that a spot at Harvard will *ever* be denied to a Kennedy or other legatee so it can be given to make black people whole?
I understand your restaurant analogy, but what I see in reality is this:
Suppose that, instead of you, your great grandfather got sick at a restaurant. And instead of the restaurant owner (who by now runs a franchise of well-to-do restautants - oh, I don't know, perhaps a chain of Sizzlers) paying, they put the hand on a bunch of struggling mom and pop restaurants in West Virginia to pay *you* for what happened then. And to make it even better, they disproportionately put a sur-tax on a bunch of restaurants that were not even in business then.
As I see it, that is what affirmative action is.
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The one thing that people have who comes from other cultures, that black Americans don’t, IS THEIR CULTURE. Black people were stripped of their language, their religion, the culture, customs, names and the like.
Oh, come on. My "language" by your extension is not English any more than yours is. And yet, here we are writing back and forth not in Mandarin or Swahili. My "religion" is no more Christianity than yours is (presuming you are, of course). Customs and names for black Americans are no more lost or found than for the fourth generation Italian American who knows little more Italian than what he sees on the Sopranos and thinks Italian food is Chef Boy Ardee. I am an immigrant to this country, but I would like to say that my "culture" and "language" and what-not is largely American. And whatever my ancestors (inclusive of my father, by the way) had as their "culture" does not determine my success of failure here.
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The people who come to America and do well are the people who come with a strong culture and heritage to serve as the foundation of their being. Moreover, people who CHOOSE to come to this country have the mindset that this is the land of opportunity and freedom. For African Americans, the history of America has been one of bondage and oppression and not the land of opportunity. Even blacks who come to America from other countries do better than the descendants of slaves because immigrating blacks have not been stripped of their culture, religion, names and foundation as those who are the descendants of slaves in this system.
What are you talking about? First, it's true that many of us who elected to come to the US see it as a land of opportunity and freedom. Because we *know* what the rest of the world - primarily our "homelands" are really like, not some fantasy taught in an ethnic pride building course at Yale. We are not blind to the history or faults of this country.
But your post does belie a certain reality - that a large problem facing black Americans is the mindset that they cannot succeed because of the history of the US. I would say to any young black man or woman that the opportunity is there to be seized. Companies like mine fall all over each other to get an excellent black candidate. I personally interviewed a brilliant black man to fill a spot - we didn't get him because he had six other offers from competitors. The idea that blacks cannot succeed is rubbish. But if a mindset of failure exists, replete with excuses, then I agree. Black people cannot succeed, and as I see it, the reliance on affirmative action is not remedying that - it is making it worse.
Finally, whilst I don't have any data to prove or disprove your conjecture that black immigrants succeed where black Americans do not, the idea that it is because they have not been stripped of their culture, language, and religion seems risible. Where do you think a lot of these non-native Black people are coming from? A large number is the West Indies, where they were subject to slavery, in many cases, in more recent times than the US.
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Most of the conflicts of the world today are the results things done to people in the past that were never reconciled. The primary benefactors of these wrongs do not want to reconcile the victims of the wrongs and hence the victims animosity leads to constant conflict and fear from both sides. Most problems of the world could be resolved with sincere efforts toward reconciliation.
Agreed without exception. I think that there does need to be real reconciliation in this country. Part of that requires that the majority (of which I am not a member, by the way) in this country accept and own their tragic and embarassing history. I think a lot of whites already are doing this (at least as an outside observer, that's what I see). Part of it, however, has got to be the black community accepting the contrition of the white majority, realising that its salvation such as it were must come from self-improvement rather than relying on white largesse (e.g., affirmative action), and taking a frank look at the core problems in black American culture (e.g., fatherlessness).
Handouts are like cracks. The more you get it more you are addicted to it. Your life depends on it. You can't function without it. To those who are demanding handouts, is this what you really want? Instead of asking for handouts, try a little hard work. Every year immigrants come to America with a shirt on their back. Those who work hard often succeed. Perhaps you should try that approach and you might just free yourself from the AA crack.
1619 – 1864 = 254 years (slavery)
1864 – 1964 = 100 years (Jim Crow)
1964 – 2008 = 44 years (Civil Rights)
1619 – 2008 = 389 years (blacks arrival in America to present)
Hmmmmm….
354 of 389 year in this land were under LEGALIZED discrimination/oppression.
44 of 389 years in this land has been under ILLEGAL discrimination (Crime is illegal but it still happens….so does racial discrimination.
In other words, 91% of the black existence in these lands has been under legal oppression and 9% of the time has been under illegal discrimination as America has yet to be discrimination free against blacks….and likely never will be.
Based upon this data….I don’t think its fair to expect blacks to have recovered by virtue of time…….just yet.
Great stats... I vote for a 10% threshold, that says 38.9 years, so, yeah I guess the timing is just about right... go for the ban (I did sign the petition when the black gentlemen that was passing it around asked me too).
Affirmative action in theory should have a place in society to avoid plutocracy. The only problem with it is that it is based upon race and gender. How in the hell does the son of a black radiologist who has been given every advantage in life get better consideration and societal empathy than a white kid from Logan Co., WV who's daddy beat him every day of his life and is poorer than dirt?
That's the problem with AA. It threw all of the whites into one big group. The Scots-Irish of Appalachia are not as well off as other white ethnic groups such as the Italians, Jews, Anglo-Saxon's, etc. The white Scots-Irish people in the hills weren't the slaveowners. They couldn't afford it. (Yet, of course, they seem to get the stereotypical blame for it in modern times.)
In fact, thanks to AA, they have now probably become the third worst off ethnic group in the US after Hispanics and Native Americans - both of which get AA benefits, but due to various sociological reasons have failed to become as successful as the black middle class has become in the last three decades. That's a whole other can of worms, though.
If people want a race-based reason why WV, KY, and other Appalachian areas didn't vote for Obama, this is why. It wasn't racism in the lynch mob Jim Crow sense - far from it. It was because they fear that even LESS opportunities and help from the government and society will trickle down to them if a minority candidate made such programs for minorities even stronger than they are today. And I can't blame them based upon how they've been treated since the beginning of this country. Of course the real reason why they went for Clinton was much more complex than just a rejection of AA - but it did have a part in it.
So what's my point? Make affirmative action class based. We should invest very strongly in the education of those with the lesser means. The untapped genius and creativity that lives in these ghettos, hollers, and reservations is vast, and, unfortunately, too often wasted.
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