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Or perhaps another right wing, southern, religious extremist trying to force his views on others. In the last 8 years we've seen what kind of disastrous results we get from faith-based policies. We don't need a Christian Taliban in this country. And the last time I checked FL and NY are both in the US. Separation of church and state applies to the whole country. There is a right to freedom of religion and freedom from religion. This is a SECULAR government and rightly so. That means when American citizens of MANY different beliefs go to a City Council meeting we should not be forced to wear a yarmulke or say the Our Father or bow to Allah or submit to any other religious dogmas before participating. Waiting outside is not a fair and equal option any more than blacks riding on the back of the bus is.
Hey your on a FL forum, this isnt NY....... Nevermind, you guy's already own FL now, who am I kidding?!? C'mon on down, you know you are anyway! Tell us more about your ideas and how backwards we are.
Don't put words in his mouth. This is what he said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by illini84 everyone was required to stand and say the Pledge of Allegiance. Then, one of the board members who is a reverend, led everyone in a prayer! Isn't this illegal?
Hey cougar, I would be mindful of accepting the OP's assertion as totally accurate. I'm inclined to borrow some of your skepticism about the legality of prayer in governemnt places and the belief in Creationism and suggest that no one coerced the OP to pray, that he/she was indeed NOT REQUIRED to stand in PRAYER, he/she could have sat it out or pulled out a copy of the "Origin of Species" while the prayer was being said, and he/she would have been within their constitutional rights.
The point is that the government cannot violate the establishment clause. You missed the point. My views on creationism or any other religious topic are completely irrelevant.
Beyond that, you don't need tacit coercion to have coercion. It's why sending non-Christian kids outside the classroom while prayers are being conducted (on the government's dime) does not fly.
It always amazes me how insensitive the majority can be toward minorities, and much worse yet if religion is involved. Has anyone here read Griffith's Black Like Me?
America is not about denying the rights of individuals. There's no country in the world that guarantees the rights of people more than we do.
Man, is this getting repetitive. The Constitution of America is about the minority not having to suffer the tyranny of the majority, and keeping a wall of separation between church and state (did you read what Thomas Jefferson said in his letter to the Danbury Baptists? You'll find the origin of the phrase there.
You do realize that even in the U.S., rights are not unlimited, don't you? You don't have the right to violate the law, and you don't have the right to violate the Constitution.
Do you not see any limit? Would it be okay with you if City Hall conducted daily church (or mosque) services?
As far as the U.S. granting more rights than anyone, are you just pulling that out of the air, or do you have info to back up that claim?
[quote=Moderate Guy;8069367]So a prayer in a governemnt facility is not an endorsement of a specific religion or belief.[quote]
Ever? In any case or manner? Obviously if someone says a prayer to himself, it's not an issue. If the Mayor conducts church services at City Hall, would that be a problem? After all, the mayor is a citizen like you and me, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moderate Guy
The denial of another person to make an incantation based on a different religion or on an atheistic sentiment would be a violation of the Constitution.
No, City Hall could just get rid of City-sanctioned prayers at public meetings. That would absolutely not be a problem. The meeting room of City Hall is not a chapel. Or do you have a legal theory that states otherwise?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moderate Guy
So in the OP's case there apparently were no other religious individuals who wanted to jump up and say another prayer.
So who's conducting the prayer? And are you saying that the Commission is obligated to spend the whole day listening to prayer after prayer? No, that is not correct. It would be interesting, though, if a Christian Identity racist got up to say his piece.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moderate Guy
An agnostic would be free to say whatever verbiage athesits subscribe to, to sit quietly, to depart and return, or follow a host of other options.
You make it sound as if an agnostic is some strange form of life. What "verbiage" do you think atheists subscribe to? "We don't know if there's a God, amen."? You might as well speculate on what verbiage people with green eyes subcribe to. Nice digression there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moderate Guy
In a plural society we don't deny rights to incant religiously in a government facility or event. We include the rights of all. Furthermore, all legality aside, it seems that everyday here in America, in our highly diverse society, we all make compromises, in legal and non-legal arenas of life, to permit others with whom we vehemently disagree on issues from the mundane to the highly emotional, to have their say.
Sorry, but my disagreement is not with the sentiments expressed, but with riding roughshod over the Constitution. You don't seem to think the establishment clause means much of anything. Sorry, I'm not going to set legality aside when an important principle is at stake.
By the way, your legal ideas don't hold water.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moderate Guy
Let's say it's the American way of courtesy and hospitality. So okay, a Nativity Scene upsets someone. Solution, include a Menorah or other display. This way everyone goes home happy. And the atheist too can be happy that he can be gracious to others as others are to him.
It's funny how Christians need to show how much they love the Lord by putting up the most garish displays of their devotion possible,things that would make a Pharisee blanch, with the other religions then trying to one-up the Christians, and each other.
You should Google for information about the Freedom from Religion Foudation's display last Christmas in Olympia, WA, and what a stink it raised. People talk about letting everyone put whatever religious (or irreligious) statement on public property, but when push comes to shove, it's not so simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moderate Guy
No case law, just a matter of human decency in a multi-ethnic, multiracial, multi-religious environment.
You are free to live on your own island, however you see fit. The U.S., though, is a nation of laws. You don't get to do whatever you want, no matter who you are. (That last part was theoretical.)
At the end of the day, WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY do religious people need to conduct their religious business on government time, in government facilities, under government sanction? You talk about live and let live, but some religious folks for some reason need to rub their beliefs in the face of everyone -- under government sanction. No one is telling them what to do or not do, except for the government part.
Government facilities are a tiny part of most peoples' lives. Why do some religious people need to force the issue, even though they know that, aside from the legal issues, a lot of people (they're not all going to express their displeasure to you) find it distasteful? The only reason I can think of is that those religious folks want the imprimatur of the government. They need to be less insecure about their faith and not worry so much about what other people think. The government's seal of approval proves nothing.
But at the end of the day, defending the Constitution is an important principle.
If there is such thing as karma, and justice is real, you will come back in your next life as a Jew in Mississippi circa 100 years ago. That might help you get a clue about what I'm talking about.
Funny how it never seems to be the Hindus, Buddhists, or (religious) Jews who complain about someone praying
You haven't a clue. Go do some research on the Anti-Defamation League, among others. It doesn't matter who complains, though; the principle remains the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerbacon
It is quite on topic. My point is that no one thought it was wrong or illegal until judges ruled that way, hence 'discovery'.
It's not a matter of being on topic. It's that what you said about "discovery" doesn't make any sense. Do you have any idea what "discovery" (in the legal context) means.
I well understand the dead horse you're flogging: "legislating from the bench". All it means in reality is that a judge rules in a way that a conservative doesn't like, since the conservative has complete and full knowledge exactly what every intention of the founding fathers was, even when there was no relevant context in 1789. In reality, it's just whining about not getting what one wants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerbacon
Ah another lib committed to free speech. How touching.
"lib"? LOL, you are a dumb*ss. Yes, taking a label and making fun of it sure does make your case. No, I'm another libertarian concerned about civil rights, and not letting the government grasp powers that are forbidden to it by the Constitution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerbacon
Answer me this: If the US Congress opens each session with a prayer, whcy can't the Miami Beach Commission?
If you read the 1983 Supreme Court decision, you'll understand that legislatures can do it if they meet certain conditions. It's alway hazy, though, whether at any given time they are meeting those conditions. Beyond that, there is more recent case law (to with, decisions by the Fifth Circuit) that contradict parts of the 1983 decision. Over the course of 26 years, legal opinion evolves. (For evidence of that, look at the zigs and zags the legality of the death penalty has taken.)
Go read the article by the Texas Municipal League. It's non-partisan.
I know you think your religion is just plain right, and other are downright stupid for not getting it, but it doesn't mean you can shove it down other people's throats. The only way you could do that would be at a government facility. There's no need for it. You can conduct your religious business anywhere else you'd like, 24/7, if that's what floats your boat.
Or perhaps another far left-wing extremist from NY trying to impose his ideas while being rude about it? Your supposed to wait til you move down here to complain and try and change things!
Sorry Chelsa, I am trying to do better, but I couldnt resist that one.
Nice show of prejudice and bigotry. It's too bad you couldn't resist.
You don't need to live here to discuss the particular case. The same principle applies all over. Being informed about the Constitution, the law, and history would be a great help, though. The fatuous comments don't really add anything useful.
Yes, bigotry is way cool, eh? Of course the ideas under discussion are meaningless if you can't understand them, so it all comes down to the characteristics of the person making the argument.
Yup, if a nasty New Yorker says 1+1=2, it would be false, because you don't like the guy who said it.
I'd say my and family's history (even beyond my parents) in the Miami area goes back a lot further (to the early 1950's) than the vast majority of people living in South Florida -- even including people of your political bent. Not that that's relevant to anything we're discussing here. But hey, when the legal discussion is beyond you, there's always that irrelevant stuff to fall back on.
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Tell us more about your ideas and how backwards we are.
