Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Soviet military doctrine centered heavy around an armed conflict in Europe as opposed to say some sort of distant armed action like in Africa, South America etc.
No kidding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy
The naval role in that could therefore be called "defensive" only if it supported defensive land operations. If their navy helped to blockade, intercept etc. in the event of offensive land operations then I don't see how you can word twist that into "defensive".
It appears you're one of those enamored with numbers and don't take the time to analyze the capabilities and roles.
Sure, the Soviets had a massive naval force on paper, but in reality 4/5 of it was a brown-water navy.
The majority of their ships were coastal patrol craft, missile corvettes and light frigates that functioned as picket/anti-sub platforms. Those vessels (Mirka, Petya, Parchim, Grisha, Tarantul, and Nanuchka-classes) weren't capable of blue water operations. About 1/3 of those were under control of the KGB who performed an immigration/customs/coast-guard/border control/intelligence gathering mission.
Their blue-water fleets were intended to defend against US carrier groups, not perform blockades.
The US had 59 cruisers compared to the Soviet's 30 cruisers (7 Kara-class, 5 Kirov-class, 6 Slava-class, 1, Azov-class, 4 Kresta I-class and 10 Kresta II-class).
The Soviet cruisers aren't going to be blockading much with 76 mm or 57 mm main guns.
.
I think you are overlooking Chavez establishing himself as dictator for life in exchange for some of the positive things he has done. .
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewToCA
you should reevaluate your support for leaders who try to convert democratic countries into dictatorships:
[.
You guys can't even get the easy, verifiable things right, and appear to be learning "history" from each other.
Chavez proposed a constitutional amendment to abolish term limits, to enable him to seek election against his opposition in 2013. The amendment was defeated, Chavez accepted the vote, and plans to step down when his successor is elected in 2013.
Some Americans are getting uptight about Russia having their military show up in Venezuela. Well, I'm not personally offended by this. After all, we have our ships and military spread all over Europe and the middle east. They or other countries have just as much right to be near our coast as long as it is outside the 12 mile limit that the US has claimed. Some countries have a 100 mile limit. What would people do if a russian ship were to be patrolling say 15-20 miles off our pacific coastline. People would be having a hemorrage. Steve
And like the US, Russia does not maintain nuclear warheads on their naval vessels.
Keep working at it, maybe you'll frighten someone eventually.
Are you friggin high! Of course they maintain nukes on board, been there, seen the marines guarding them, was actually on a nuke weapons loading team for in our squadron.... Better pull your head out of the sand................
The Soviets developed and deployed "cruise" missiles and other anti-ship missiles in the 1960s, long before the US even thought of the idea.
In the 1971 Pakistani Civil War, India was successful in using its Soviet made Osa-class missile boats with its SS-N-2B against Pakistani ships, sinking two destroyers and a minesweeper.
The US didn't even have anti-ship missiles then. The Kynda and Kresta-class cruisers used vertical launch systems in the late 1960s, and they also used vertical launch systems for their surface-to-air missiles.
What moron would compare a Kirov-class cruiser to an Aegis-class cruiser?
They don't perform the same missions. That's like saying a Volkswagen VW is a turd compared to Kenworth. No kidding, VWs aren't intended to haul trailers.
Aegis class cruiser is a kill all cruiser. Anti air, anti shipping and even has some anti sub abilities. Its primary mission is to support carrier battle groups but can easily function as a stand off platform.
The Kirov designed primarily for anti shipping is of little use for anything else. It is a poor design by any standard.
As for the USSR's cruise missiles go do some home work.
Hint USS Albany was a porkupine of anti ship anti aircraft missiles.
What moron would compare the two classes of ships? Anyone who was looking to match up a battle force in the event of a battle. The aegis class with its spy 1 radar combined with its harpoon and Tomohak missiles would be more than a match for a Russian cruiser. Especially one as poorly designed and limited as a Kirov class. Bigger doesn't mean better.
Are you friggin high! Of course they maintain nukes on board, been there, seen the marines guarding them, was actually on a nuke weapons loading team for in our squadron.... Better pull your head out of the sand................
Bush issued an executive order in 1991 withdrawing all tactical nuclear warheads from US ships and the order was not rescinded, amended or revoked by Clinton or Bush Jr.
Marines, among things, enforce the 2-person rule, which applies to all items designated vital to national security by the responsible custodian. That includes nuclear as well as non-nuclear warheads and other nuclear and non-nuclear items that require safe-guarding to prevent degradation or destruction, such as main missile assemblies, guidance systems and radars.
The nuclear warheads for the TLAMs were withdrawn and disassembled at the Pantex facility in Texas, but I'm absolutely certain you knew that, just as I'm absolutely certain you're aware that there are training warheads for use in NWTIs and other certification, qualification or inspection programs.
The Kirov designed primarily for anti shipping is of little use for anything else. It is a poor design by any standard.
No, it's a poor design if you continually insist that it be used in a capacity that it was never intended to be used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01
What moron would compare the two classes of ships? Anyone who was looking to match up a battle force in the event of a battle. The aegis class with its spy 1 radar combined with its harpoon and Tomohak missiles would be more than a match for a Russian cruiser. Especially one as poorly designed and limited as a Kirov class. Bigger doesn't mean better.
Well, again, you don't understand how the Russians employ their systems.
The Soviet/Russian navy wasn't designed to sail around the world and threaten and intimidate other countries like the US navy was designed to do.
No, it's a poor design if you continually insist that it be used in a capacity that it was never intended to be used.
Well, again, you don't understand how the Russians employ their systems.
The Soviet/Russian navy wasn't designed to sail around the world and threaten and intimidate other countries like the US navy was designed to do.
So all those poorly built/designed ballistic subs they built were for???????
Oh yeah just in case they needed them.
That 1000 ship navy they had in the early 1980's was for????? In case our navy invaded them?
Their invasion of afghanistan wasn't about domination but about improving their lives. Ok I got it.
The Kirov was designed to go after US carrier battle groups. In this it is poorly designed. It would never be able to fend off an aerial assault, fend off an aegis cruiser assault or protect itself in any way from our attack subs.
Russia's anti-submarine abilities were and are generations behind that of the USA.
My whole point is that sending this whale to the carribean isn't a threat to the USA and shouldn't be taken as one.
The fact is they have every right to sail in international waters the same rights that we do. No more no less. That goes for the black sea as well.
As far designed to intimidate the world? I can't remember a single cruise that I was on that we were sent to threaten anyone. Make our presence felt yes. Lybia was a big concern in those days.
By the way your previous post was outstanding
Thank you for answering my question. Your answer being, that you want to apply our proven disastrous Cuban policy to Venezuela, and the Cuban people suffered terribly through a half a century of our Cuban policy, and the same policy in Venezuela would cause their people to suffer terribly, and AMERICANS DON'T CARE how much people suffer in countries that we CLAIM we are trying to protect from harm and win the hearts and minds of. We are discussing Venezuela policy, in which you favor of repeating the disastrous Cuban policy. Your Venezuela policy IS the failed Cuban policy, and that, to you, means nothng. Policy in a 'history vacuum". And you also brought us into the disastrous Iraq war, because reminding you of Vietnam was something that "was of no interest at all to you". Except that it predicted exactly what would happen in Iraq.
As Einstein said, the definition of insanity is to keep repeating the same thing and expecting different results. I've often wondered why EInstein said "insanity" when he really meant "stupid".
Why are you still mentioning Cuba? What responsibility does the US have to trade with them? I think Castro and the Communist system are the reasons why Cuba is so poor. What about all the aid and trade they did with the USSR? Cuba was their Israel, but why is it still a poor s--thole? Nah, has nothing to do with a corrupt and inefficient dictatorship, it is that the US isn't trading with it, despite the fact that they are able to trade with almost the entire world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
No, it's a poor design if you continually insist that it be used in a capacity that it was never intended to be used.
Well, again, you don't understand how the Russians employ their systems.
The Soviet/Russian navy wasn't designed to sail around the world and threaten and intimidate other countries like the US navy was designed to do.
You're right. The Soviet navy was designed to support an invasion of Western Europe.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
