The Politics of Having Kids (abortion, financial, education, state)

[silas777]

Originally Posted by dvcgal

If a woman gets pregnant, society today makes her feel forced to be a mother. I am not talking about women who do not want children and never do, I am simply speaking of those who get pregnant by accident and then are forced into the situation by society. Women are 'supposed' to want kids and it seems almost unnatural to many folks, if they do not want kids and when a woman gets pregnant, everyone always comments on how happy you must be, how lucky you are or blessed you are and women tend to be forced into motherhood at that point. EVEN if they have already decided to give their baby up for adoption, the fact that strangers walk-up and want to give you their opinion makes many women feel pressured and makes many women feel like less of ahuman if they are giving their baby up for adoption. There is pressure there and not to sound mean, but you being a man makes it difficult to understand exactly what women go through when they are pregnant.

I can understand what you are saying, and certainly think that any Woman or Girl that finds herself in a the position of an "unwanted pregnancy", should by all means be able to consider giving that child up for adoption with out others making her feel guilty. Having said that, I also think our society today has made the role of being a Mother, pretty insignificant and we have reduced the act of creating and giving birth to a living human being, our own flesh and blood, down to a decision of convenience! Perhaps ,those woman who absolutely dont want children, should, think about that a little more when they are about to commit the act that results in pregnancy!

[Wisteria]

Chielgirl:
I'm going to ask a question here, and I know it's going to be unpopular. I also know that I'll be attacked.

Why in the world do so many parents on this board still think that everyone should have kids?
Having a child is not for everyone, I wish it were not the default.

dvcgal :If a woman gets pregnant, society today makes her feel forced to be a mother. I am not talking about women who do not want children and never do, I am simply speaking of those who get pregnant by accident and then are forced into the situation by society. Women are 'supposed' to want kids and it seems almost unnatural to many folks, if they do not want kids and when a woman gets pregnant, everyone always comments on how happy you must be, how lucky you are or blessed you are and women tend to be forced into motherhood at that point. EVEN if they have already decided to give their baby up for adoption, the fact that strangers walk-up and want to give you their opinion makes many women feel pressured and makes many women feel like less of ahuman if they are giving their baby up for adoption. There is pressure there and not to sound mean, but you being a man makes it difficult to understand exactly what women go through when they are pregnant.

I guess I'm confused by this thread. I thought it was about women thinking they should "want" to have kids, rather than feeling "forced" to have kids.

Dvcgal uses the example of, apparently, a woman who is pregnant and chooses to give the child up for adoption -- I knew women like that many decades ago, but not recently. Most women I know who didn't want a child, had abortions. And, often they did not tell anyone except their significant other/husband, or close friend -- it wasn't like people knew about it. So, I'm not sure if the "forced" part is from already being pregnant, walking around looking pregnant and then people asking about it and finding out the person is not keeping the baby -- is that what the question is??

Chielgirl makes more of a point that people have the right to choose -- to have kids or not -- I think it's absolutely fine. I was in that position until I was 42, and, quite frankly, was surprised that I enjoyed having my daughter and raised her well. I wasn't going to have kids, but at the last minute changed my mind.

I have to agree with gentlearts -- the more educated people are having less children, and the "dumb" ones are having more. I've watched this over the years and recoiled at this phenomena. This is one hurdle I have no idea how it can be overcome! Education means consciousness and a sense of responsibility, thus, less children and those you do have are usually cared for in better ways. Less education, well, you already know the correlation!

Now, having been childless for 42 years, I don't recall pressure to feel "forced" to have kids. Plus, quite honestly, had I not had my daughter, I never would have known the difference. The only time you know the difference is afterwards. So, if one makes the lifestyle choice to not have children, they are happy with that choice, the partner is happy with the choice, I don't understand the feeling that they "should" have kids. There are plenty of children in the world already! And there are plenty of people like myself who respect that decision and wouldn't think of pressuring anyone to reconsider, if that is their choice! How horrible to be in a position where people try to guilt someone into thinking they are obligated to have children!

Maybe it is a regional/urban/rural difference. I was childless for 42 years and don't recall anyone cajoling me into wanting to have a baby. And none of my friends had kids, and I knew married people who had abortions and then later decided to have kids, some who adopted, and some who just remained married/unmarried and childless. I don't recall any issues being made of it.

I'm wondering if it is more a thing of the kinds of people one is around. What do you think?? I do remember that one of my sisters told me, at the time, that when I had my daughter, that in a sense I "was one of them now...." although I never felt like one of them. Having a kid didn't change my personality or values, it merely made me a parent. I was never a suburbanite anyway. I know that they were quite disappointed to discover that not only was I still "me," but now I was a "me" with a "mini me!" That was not popular. However....they are all suburban-type parents and families, and live a very traditional life. I was more urban and had a different kind of friends and social circle. I did not have any pressure from my friends or co-workers to ever have kids -- in fact, I don't recall it ever even being a topic of conversation -- it was just accepted that you were who you were, and that was that.

My guess is that if one feels they should be required to have or desire children that it is the "peer pressure" of the community or social set that one is involved in. Most of my friends don't have children, and most are not married, so I was the anomoly -- yet, I never felt looked down upon or that I was still anything but who I was. That's what makes me think it may be more of the influence of the family/friends/community one has.

So, I'm curious, do you think it is the people one is surrounded by, or the media, or what, that makes some women feel that they "should" want children? I didn't have that experience, so it is curious to me to hear this, and I'd like to learn more about what kinds of environments or social groups are imposing this pressure?

I didn't realize this was something that was going on nowadays. I thought people had gotten over it and realized there was "free will" and "choice."

So sorry to hear there are those in this position.

[dvcgal]

Wisteria-
I was trying not to make this a pro-life/pro-choice debate. I used the example of a woman already being pregnant, giving her baby up for adoption as a way to simply signify how there is pressure there to be a mother even if she does not want be.
As far as gentlearts comments, this is true, and abortion has actually become commonly used by more white women with some college education and a career, who can afford it mind you, than those of a lower-class economic status and lack of educational background. I am sorry that I did not make myself clear in my post, I was truly trying to stay away from the pro-life/pro-choice debate. Plus, I get tired of hearing people say that women should think of the consequences before they have sex. I think that is totally unfair for women because men can sleep with whoever they choose and can run from issues like pregnancy. Women have been told by society that they cannot and you can see this for yourself just by reading different threads on CD. Those who support pro-choice are considered murderers and those who support pro-life do not see any reason to step up and create a solution rather than belittling women who choose abortion.

[Wisteria]

Thanks for the explanation, dvcgal. I guess that's why I was confused because it wasn't openly addressed. You're right -- it's definitely a hot issue in many places, and I see why you phrased it the way you did. I also see why it's in the political threads.

You're absolutely right about men....wish it weren't so... I remember my mother telling me that in comparison to what women have to go through, especially with their bodies, the "worst thing a man has to do is shave!" I understood her point -- for her generation, she was pretty open-minded! (Hence, my open mind. )

But then the issue comes back to that choice -- if a woman gets caught in a pregnancy, and it is only the female who can get pregnant....what does she do if she is not ready or wanting a child? And the guy gets to make his "choice" by staying or leaving....hmmmm, something seems skewed here...

Obviously, you can tell which camp I'm in, and I think it very unfair to try to strong arm a woman into having a kid that she either doesn't want to have, or can't take care of. Choice is choice - but then, if I go too far....I can see the bullets heading my way, too!

Thanks for clearing that up. Just add me to the "agree" list!

[PurpleLove08]

Originally Posted by silas777

I am all for big families and have many friends with 3,4 or more kids, but, I support 100%, any one with leftist politic's decision not to have kids!

I know some child free people who are christian pro-life, etc, etc.
What about someone with conservative views? I guess you wouldn't support that.
Are you part of the Quiverfull movement to breed perfect little republican soliders?

[mrstewart]

I have several children but I do not believe it is for everyone, nor do I condemn someone for choosing not to have them. Actually, I commend the people who are insightful enough to evaluate their lives and come to the conclusion not to have children without guilt or social expectations having weight in the choice.

[PurpleLove08]

Originally Posted by chielgirl

While I agree that not everyone should have kids what would you have us do? Mandatory sterilization, Euthanezia (sp) forced work camps for those insanely large faimlies.They tried all that once back in the 30's

I would rather it be more acceptable for people to not have kids instead of people asking, "Why not?" "what's wrong?" or "do you hate children?"

I like children enough to not bring one of my own into the world because though I could be a "good mother," I would resent that child for many reasons. I'm doing the right thing by not bringing one into the world.

I think women and men should have more access to family planning services. I think it should be easier for women who don't have children to get an IUD or sterilization. I've heard stories from other child free people who have encountered doctors who have said, "Until you have a child I won't perform this procedure on you" or "you're too young to make this decision."

I somewhat think this is a money-making scheme by the doctors. If a woman finds herself pregnant, cannot afford or access an abortion, and she's forced to carry the child to term [and actually cares about the kid's wellbeing], she'll HAVE to come to all these pre-natal appointments and get all sorts of tests done. All the while the doctor gets paid all this money. The day of birth is probably the bigger money maker of all.
It seems like it's better for the doctor's pocketbook to let a woman take her chances on getting pregnant than to take a more definite approach by giving her an IUD or sterilizing her.
Of course there are plenty of ways to protect against pregnany: abstinence, birth control pills, birth control ring, birth control patch, condoms, diaphram [if they still do that], vasectomy, etc.

There are lots of things we can do that don't involve the things you mention. I really don't think the OP was suggesting this.

[PurpleLove08]

Originally Posted by mrstewart

I have several children but I do not believe it is for everyone, nor do I condemn someone for choosing not to have them. Actually, I commend the people who are insightful enough to evaluate their lives and come to the conclusion not to have children without guilt or social expectations having weight in the choice.

Now if only more people thought like you....

[donica2k]

American dumb for making too many babys. Many american woman make babys with first man they see. In my countries we wait to have baby until we meet right man when 30. When in america for school i see many woman in school make baby with other man in school. many americans womans think they love man at 16 year of age. Or at 22 year of age not looking for other better mens in furture.

[mrstewart]

Originally Posted by Wisteria;5563680
I have to agree with [B

gentlearts[/b] -- the more educated people are having less children, and the "dumb" ones are having more. I've watched this over the years and recoiled at this phenomena. This is one hurdle I have no idea how it can be overcome! Education means consciousness and a sense of responsibility, thus, less children and those you do have are usually cared for in better ways. Less education, well, you already know the correlation!

I have my undergrad degree and masters from Boston College and I have 6 children...what does that make me???