Stop The Attacks on the LDS Church! (minorities, war, african)

[PaulMcNabb]

Originally Posted by Taboo2

does this mean no ear piercings, tattoos or other brandings? What about cutting your hair, how come BY had a beard but no men at BYU can have facial hair?

None of those things are commandments. Nothing will happen to you should you get a tattoo or a piercing. However, our Church leaders have told us that we should avoid misusing, mistreating, or defiling our bodies. The hair and beard thing is just a BYU dress code standard. Lots of LDS men have beards and a few have long hair. For a while, both of my counselors in the bishopric had facial hair. I didn't notice until it came up in a discussion once with my wife.

They came from a church in Cali so perhaps their little church dictated the no soda rule. Still, it came from the higher-ups in her ward.

I don't know what was said in her ward, but the temple recommend interview has specific questions and bishops are not supposed to deviate from that at all. I suspect that someone may have felt motivated to stress a no caffeine lifestyle, but I'd bet nickels to dollars that they couched it as "here's what our leaders have encouraged us to do so let's try to do it" rather than "this is a commandment." I have difficulty imagining a bishop getting away with the later even if he wanted to.

Nah, he is a nice guy, a lawyer.

Good for him (I'll refrain from lawyer jokes here). The way you described him as a "super-Mormon" made it sound as if you were trying to mock him or express disapproval.

i don't read propaganda written by the church. I read only objective articles written by news sources. Sorry.

Objective? News sources?

But in any case, this is different. The question was what did Mormons believe. You expressed a willingness to believe your roommate's interpretation (hardly objective and of questionable accuracy) and yet refused to read the official statements of LDS belief.

So given your care regarding sources, I take it that when you wanted to find out about Proposition 8, you were very careful to refuse to ever read anything written by a gay person, a person affiliated with a LGBT organization, or any LGBT organizations, right? I mean, after all, when those people talk about gay issues it is all propaganda meant to push their own agenda and can't be trusted to give us the real feelings of gays or lesbians...

You cannot say that her bishop in whatever ward she is in told her to drink caffeinated sodas. That is what their church teaches and they say it is LDS. Go figure. Maybe YOUR ward isn't so strict.

No. I can't say what her bishop said. But I've been bishop twice in two different wards totaling over 10 years, plus I've been in a stake presidency, plus I have lots of friends who are or have been bishops (probably about 30 or 40) in all parts of the country, including California. I can confidently say that if her bishop got on a no-caffeine kick, he was off the beaten path.

Well his brother had a kid out of wedlock and instead of forgiving him like the bible says to, he was banned from attendind his brothers wedding in the temple. I see no good can come of a church that intentionally tries to disrupt and pull apart families. NO one should be responsible for their brothers behavior. That affected the family because of the temple rules.

Yes, the temple is a sore spot for some people. We have a strict rule that only members who meet certain criteria can enter them. Everybody, and I mean everybody, in the Church understands what is required to enter the temple. The brother who committed fornication knew that such a thing would temporarily bar him from entering the temple, probably for about a year. It has nothing to do with not forgiving him. Neither the Church nor its leaders grant people forgiveness, God does. Members are required to immediately forgive. I'm sorry that guy chose to do what he did, but our actions have consequences.

But why not? They say they have a direct link to God, he talks DIRECTLY to the elder having the revelation.

Now you've moved into purely theological territory. We simply don't believe that the purpose of a prophet is to know everything about anything. We don't believe that is God's plan or the way God works. Prophets are here to pass on God's words relating to our eternal salvation and our relationship to Him and to Christ.

BTW how do you handle scientist when they believe in evolution and not creation? How is God involved in us discovering evolution and carbon dating and that fetal tissue can cure terrible diseases?

I and more than 50% (I've never taken a survey so I can't be more specific than that) of all the LDS Christians I know believe in an old earth and in evolution. Our Church has no official teaching on evolution, so people can believe whatever they want. I know Young Earth Creationist Mormons, and we get along just fine.

You are funny. This is called debate class. There is no emotion involved although i do LOVE TO TYPE IN CAPS!

I enjoy the give and take as well.

Well let's just put it this way. There are only 10 Commandments and being gay didn't qualify. Not much of a sin if you ask me.

True, unless you consider it as falling under the adultery category as part of a general commandment against sexual sin.

Then again, the Ten Commandments don't talk about rape, pedophilia, wife-beating, and a host of other things that I consider pretty serious. I'm not sure we should view the Ten Commandments as being the "top ten" list of sins. They identify key areas in life where we need to be good and involve both our duty to God and our duty to our fellow man.

Why are mormons so hung up on gay people getting married? I mean, we let you marry multiple young girls for YEARS- so who are you to decide who gets to marry?

Both myths. I'm not aware of Mormons being hung up on gays getting married. We are certainly nothing like the fundamentalist Christians who preach anti-homosexuality sermons. I doubt homosexuality is mentioned as much as once a year from the pulpit in our Church, and I've never heard a sermon devoted to it. I've never seen any Sunday School, seminary, or institute lesson devoted to homosexuality, though I have seen it mentioned from time to time in lists of sins.

The idea of marrying multiple young girls is a myth. During the 19th century the age of marriage for Utah woman was in line with the national average. Those modern groups that practice polygamy aren't Mormons. They are the grandchildren and great grandchildren of people who left the Church years ago over this issue. They have their own churches and their own religion.

If it were up to many of you, we would be marrying 14 yr old girls to old men. And sisters to other married men. Seems the pot calling the kettle black.

Again, you don't seem to know the historical facts here. Maybe you are confusing us with groups like the FLDS who have been in the news recently.

[CatManDoo]

Originally Posted by PaulMcNabb

Great! I'm a Christian. Not only that, I'm recognized as a Christian all around the world.

Right, as evidenced by the countless articles/speeches/sermons available on the topic all over the web, including lds.org itself. Yep, the battle is surely won. No further need for discussion. The world is convinced. Well, except for the Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and Episcopalians, but what do they know? As long as the Muslims, Jews, Atheists, and Satanists -- those you identified as not being Christian -- believe it, then it's valid.

[CatManDoo]

Originally Posted by PaulMcNabb

Again, you don't seem to know the historical facts here. Maybe you are confusing us with groups like the FLDS who have been in the news recently.

They're "some form of" Mormonism, so you best claim ownership, Bishop.

[PaulMcNabb]

Originally Posted by CatManDoo

Never visited that site, but thanks! Some good stuff there. You'll be seeing it soon.

Good heavens, no! That stuff is so tiresome...

I have a list of about 100 anti-Mormon websites I keep track of. Remind me to never give you that list...

And considering the ~30 LDS apologetics websites linked on your site, I'd say you're quite adept at copying and pasting yourself, Bishop.

Yup. But at least I can claim to have read almost everything on all those sites and have written a few of them. Plus I've read quite a bit of the source material that they reference. I own, and have read, several bookshelves worth of material on these issues, including scores, if not hundreds, of anti-Mormon pieces. I'm going to guess that I've read more anti-Mormon books, pamphlets, and websites than all the people on this board combined. I don't know that for sure, but I'm guessing I'm not too far off. Since you've been to my website, you will know that I am the editor for the FAIR Journal. My amateur work in this area stretches back now for many decades.

Most people who attack Mormonism know little more than appears highlighted when they do the cut and paste. They know nothing about the history or reliability of the material they are posting. They are completely unfamiliar with the LDS responses to the issues. As a result they usually find themselves at a severe disadvantage.

There are some strong arguments to be made both for and against LDS claims. I don't think either the pro-LDS or the anti-LDS side can prove its case. But casual visitors to the anti-Mormon field seem to have a knack for picking the very worst arguments and evidences to use. They just can't be brought to acknowledge that most of the anti-Mormon websites out there are decades out of date and often highly inaccurate, sometimes apparently intentionally so.

[PaulMcNabb]

Originally Posted by CatManDoo

They're "some form of" Mormonism, so you best claim ownership, Bishop.

Gosh. So now I have to defend all religions and churches that are even remotely connected with me?

Well, in case there is any confusion, I think they are wrong too. So I won't be defending them. Wasn't Jim Jones and his group some kind of Protestantism? Are you up to defending their beliefs and practices? Or is claiming ownership something that somehow applies only to others?

[PaulMcNabb]

Originally Posted by CatManDoo

Right, as evidenced by the countless articles/speeches/sermons available on the topic all over the web, including lds.org itself. Yep, the battle is surely won. No further need for discussion. The world is convinced. Well, except for the Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and Episcopalians, but what do they know?

All those groups have a long history of calling Mormons Christians. You can find a few exceptions in certain articles where the term "Christian" is being used in a specialized sense of "historic, orthodox Christianity."

The whole issue of whether or not Mormons are Christians is a relatively recent phenomenon coming out of certain 20th century fundamentalist movements. It was only in the late 20th century that LDS Christians even started noticing the small but vocal groups that were trying to redefine Christianity.

[LogicIsYourFriend]

Originally Posted by PaulMcNabb

Yes, the temple is a sore spot for some people. We have a strict rule that only members who meet certain criteria can enter them. Everybody, and I mean everybody, in the Church understands what is required to enter the temple. The brother who committed fornication knew that such a thing would temporarily bar him from entering the temple, probably for about a year. It has nothing to do with not forgiving him. Neither the Church nor its leaders grant people forgiveness, God does. Members are required to immediately forgive. I'm sorry that guy chose to do what he did, but our actions have consequences.

So how can mormons punish this guy if they are supposed to immediately forgive? What a horrible punishment, not being able to attend one of the most important family events in one's life. This is not some slap on the hand; this is a grave punishment for something that "non-judgmental" members really have no business even knowing about. The LDS church is oppressive because it controls such intimate areas of peoples' lives (e.g. family, afterlife, social status, etc.), and uses that as leverage to bend people to the will of the church.

Both myths. I'm not aware of Mormons being hung up on gays getting married. We are certainly nothing like the fundamentalist Christians who preach anti-homosexuality sermons. I doubt homosexuality is mentioned as much as once a year from the pulpit in our Church, and I've never heard a sermon devoted to it. I've never seen any Sunday School, seminary, or institute lesson devoted to homosexuality, though I have seen it mentioned from time to time in lists of sins.

The mormon position on homosexuality is clear. The millions of mormon dollars spent to help ban gay marriage are proof that they are "hung up on gays getting married." That's a lot of money to spend on something you don't care about.

The idea of marrying multiple young girls is a myth. During the 19th century the age of marriage for Utah woman was in line with the national average. Those modern groups that practice polygamy aren't Mormons. They are the grandchildren and great grandchildren of people who left the Church years ago over this issue. They have their own churches and their own religion.

So anyone who is a polygamist is not a mormon? Then I guess Joseph Smith was not a mormon. Joseph Smith's Official Familysearch.com Record (http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/AF/individual_record.asp?recid=7762167&lds=0%AEion=-1%AEionfriendly=&frompage=99 - broken link)

Again, you don't seem to know the historical facts here. Maybe you are confusing us with groups like the FLDS who have been in the news recently.

"And if Joseph Smith have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore he is justified for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified." - Doctrine and Covenants 132:62-63

[Jonotastic]

**** ALL CHURCHES...better?? lol

[PaulMcNabb]

Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend

So how can mormons punish this guy if they are supposed to immediately forgive? What a horrible punishment, not being able to attend one of the most important family events in one's life. This is not some slap on the hand; this is a grave punishment for something that "non-judgmental" members really have no business even knowing about. The LDS church is oppressive because it controls such intimate areas of peoples' lives (e.g. family, afterlife, social status, etc.), and uses that as leverage to bend people to the will of the church.

People have a requirement from God to immediately forgive others. The Church has a requirement from God to operate as He has said, which includes creating and maintaining standards of behavior. You see it as punishment that a person who willfully violates one of our more sacred trusts be temporarily denied a privilege expressly conditioned on maintaining that trust. We see it as being of eternal significance to the transgressor that he be allowed to readjust his life according to the plan God has given. We see it as a wise and loving part of God's plan to help us all become committed followers of a holy God. I guess this is one of those things where we just disagree about what is kind and fair and good and just.

I'm sorry that you prefer a church that maintains no standard and doesn't challenge its members to live a life of covenant and holiness. Everything in the Church is entirely voluntary, as is membership itself. Each person can choose whether or not to be a part and to what extent to be involved. Members' transgressions and weaknesses are not discussed or revealed. Privacy is maintained with usually only the bishop knowing any details. And yet we are much more involved in each others' lives than nearly any other church. We believe that is God's plan for His people, not a sign of oppression.

The mormon position on homosexuality is clear. The millions of mormon dollars spent to help ban gay marriage are proof that they are "hung up on gays getting married." That's a lot of money to spend on something you don't care about.

I see a vast gulf between responding to a particular campaign issue and being hung up on something. Maybe you classify any strong belief as a hang up whether or not that belief is something that is only rarely an issue. I feel very strongly against spouse-beaters (and no one, please, accuse me of equating gays with spouse beaters...) and you can be sure that I would donate time and money if there was a proposition on the ballot to decriminalize spouse-beating. But I can't imagine my belief fitting into the category of a hangup. I have some strong beliefs and opinions on a number of topics that, though nothing at all like a hangup, could compel me to significant action if I felt that my time and money was important for that issue.

So anyone who is a polygamist is not a mormon?

Yes. Anyone found to be a polygamist is immediately excommunicated.

Then I guess Joseph Smith was not a mormon.

Note the change in tense from present to past. ;^)

We believe that God runs this church. Polygamy was instituted for a certain time and under certain conditions. That time is past. In the New Testament Church, gentiles were originally considered outside the scope of the Gospel message and then, through a revelation to his apostles, Gentiles were brought into the fold. We really do believe that our church is run by God in exactly the same way and to the same degree as was the New Testament Church.

Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and others were faithful Latter-day Saints in their days and they lived the law of plural marriage as God had commanded. When that time was over, those faithful to God made the transition. Others who were more like Pharisees in their rigid adherence to the past decided to cling to their understanding of the past than to follow the living God.

[Jonotastic]

Joseph Smith was called a prophet...DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB...he is the one who started the Morman religion...DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB lol