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......(and around and around we go). Listen, I do agree with you that heterosexual marriage is an exclusionary measure to everyone, not just homosexuals. (I will get to this later.) But isn't homosexual marriage/heterosexual marriage exclusionary to polygamists, and taken to the next level incest, and then taken to the next level people in NAMBLQ!? "Do you want to[leave] your children a world that discriminates against people that are different than them but pose no harm to them whatsoever?" Well if it is against NAMBLA THAN HECK YES!!!! Call me a bigot now! What if it was a polygamist group made from homosexuals? Would you have problems then?
Indeed, if your neighbors next door were involved in polygamy right now, would it really change your life that much?
Once again, I find it mind-boggling those homosexuals and their "marriage right" supporters, of all people, would be a road block for this. Another reason why most far right wing conservatives believe the word liberal is synonymous with the word hypocrisy. Your point only proves this more. You can sit here all day and shout that "well gay marriage is between TWO consenting adults." But when I shout back something just as "baseless" like "marriage should only be between TWO consenting heterosexual adults," you can see how this argument will never end unless homosexuals make some concessions.
If you couldn't already tell, I’m not for polygamy, or incest, or even gay marriage. I'm really not! But like I have said before, you can still be against something, but understand its objectivity. Operative word here is objectivity; something that liberals don't get! They only want the right to come over to them. But ask the left to cross the line, well now you’re a racist and a homophobe.
But have you ever stopped, and taken a good hard look at what makes the foundation for most to of the Christian right, and why they do many of the things they do? It is because their foundation is Christianity. Do you understand that in ALL Christian beliefs (Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical, and Reformist) they all teach a sound, basic principle that if our world embraces gay marriage, God will destroy us. Has that ever crossed your mind? I know the last thing the left wants in this argument is for some conservative wacko to bring up the "G-word", but in all honesty, surprise!, that is what make the base platform for the right! Yes, you can call me zealot, but I do truly believe that God is real, and Jesus is my Savior. I am sure of that, just as sure that I am typing this.
So, since liberals have all the answers, and are so enlightened beyond what modern religion can ever hope to achieve for the average citizen; how would you approach this topic? Because the way that I see it, if I, as a Christian put out a vote for gay marriage than I am in the wrong, and if I put out a vote against gay marriage I'm still in the wrong. So how do homosexuals even begin to appease us in that? Liberals don't have this foundation, so they constantly have to redefine what is liberal, and how far they can push it. I guarantee you that in a hundred years (if gay marriage becomes national policy, which I bet it will) the same type of people that you put your trust in now, will be making the same argument, only this time for people that want marriage that falls outside your "TWO consenting adults" mantra You know this already!
I know the last part there sounds a little too, “preachy religious”, but in the end, I feel much better putting my argument in the hands of a higher being, than a group of people that through a child-like tantrum in the streets of LA when they don’t get their way.
Arizona, when does your book come out? Man it is kinda text heavy and dominating. I know a great editor if you need.
BTW, Do you think most of the people are actually taking the time and reading your long essays or do you just want to get things off your chest?
It kinda says something about your personality, based on the exaggerated posts. Its a little much.
Last edited by Joe Bama!; 11-20-2008 at 12:51 PM..
BTW, Do you think most of the people are actually taking the time and reading your long essays or do you just want to get things off your chest?
I'm reading one right now, It's well articulated and.. yawn.. thought out..
yawn.. " excuse me ".. professional ..zzzzzzzzzzzzzz &#@$&(&$%$
SNFJHUOHRYTR#$%%*(*)_HBR..zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
actually I wish I was dedicated enough to write out more than
a couple of smart ass lines, bottom line is hetero, homo, who
cares, live and let live.
You can't be kidding me when you believe that being a Christian and being a liberal do not synch up!
First of all, christianity has many, many different sects and denominations. "Christians" can't even agree on what is right or wrong. So you can't paint things as strictly Christian or not. It's not one movement, its actually several different movements linked together by some common characteristics. Each sect or denomination has their own interpretations of the bible.
So as a conservative christian do you believe in the death penalty? War? Both involve murder. If you oppose both, then you can make a valid argument against abortion.
One thing that I find astounding is that the Bible was written at a time when homosexuality was a common practice. It was ingrained into Greek culture. The Spartans were notorious for their homosexual and bisexual tendacies.
Yet, you never hear Jesus condone homosexuality in the bible. Nor is it a major or minor topic in the bible.
I'd like to hear your take on my points. I'm always open for constructive dialogue.
Well let me say thank you for being open to this "constructive dialogue". In my experience with liberalism, this kind of discussion would have most likely have ended on page two. If that!
I am fully aware that the term Christian is a very over encompassing title for many different religious sects. Believe me! No one is more aware of this than me. But even though each may indeed have contradictory individual doctrines that enable them to stand out within the greater realm of organized religion, they also share many of the same doctrinal principles that crate much of the Christian right. Hence, the reason they are all called Christians. These tenets include; pro-traditional family, pro-life, pro-capitalism, etc. So yes, they each do have different doctrinal teachings (i.e. "their own interpretations of the Bible) but when you look past that, their views of the societal world are very much the same. So no, I do not take back my statement that liberalism does not quite "sync up" with Christianity.
Look at it this way. We now have the most left president elect that we have ever had. He does not deny it, and he offers no apologize for feeling this way. So if he is indeed going to be the face and literal spokesman for modern day liberalism, it is easy to see how the things he stands for don't quite add up to a Christian attitude of the world. I repeat; Obama openly supporters infanticide. I don't care if he is the Pope. If he supports infanticide, that alone makes him not Christian. Not only that, but he believes in all sorts of interpretations of the family (though he isn't so far left as people think on that), he has already stated that he wants to create a "welfare state" for our country. I don't know about you, but at least to the religion that I subscribe to, that is a pretty big slap in the face to Christianity. So I guess I should redefine what I said. It isn't that every Christian individual, that finds SOME SMALL tenets of liberalism to be correct, is in error. But it is the same individuals that believe in “Obama Liberalism” that tends to change things a great deal. The only problem is; with liberalism, there aren't too many degrees of variance. Their leaders don't allow for it!! With Obama now the face for liberalism, and his Democrat battalion catering to his every want, we are more likely not going to be hearing to much from the Mike Huckabees of the world.
Continuing one, you ask if I believe in the death penalty. The answer is quite simply no. I do not however like the fact that my tax money goes to keeping murderers and rapists in jail. I personally feel though that we as humans should not play God. If you are a Christian, you know that those people will have to answer for their actions some day. Do I believe in war? Absolutely!! But here is the stipulation; it must be condoned. But am I one of these pansies that sit around and believes in the “Pre-Pearl Harbor” mentality of "let them come first." NO! If the war is legitimately justified, and it is designed to keep the murdering terrorists "over there", than all power to us. I personally do not feel that the Vietnam War fell into this category, but I do feel like the War on Terrorism is more than justified, and a LONG time coming. With that said, I am appalled at your total ignorance in saying that war is the same as abortion. (!!!) Even IF you feel that war is unjustified in all cases, at least the soldiers fighting for us can protest themselves. Tell me; what in the world does an infant have to protect itself with. It certainly does not have the protection of our President elect's "version" of the "living" constitution, of the murderous doctors, or, you know, THE LOVING MOTHER!!!! So, while I am in NO way a war monger, I believe that it is justified, especially in this case at present. What were we supposed to do? Sit down over tea and crumpets and read "Peace for Beginners" with Suddam and Osama?! Abortion doesn't even begin to apply here!
What does it matter if homosexuality was a common practice during the time when the Bible was "written"? First off, the message doesn't change depending on the time in which it was written. And secondly, I find that somewhat hard to believe since the Bible is a conglomeration of many different time periods, compiled into one book. Sure, at the death of Christ, homosexuality was a hot time, but at the beginning (especially) and throughout, I don’t think so. While homosexuality is widely accepted in California, the people certainty voted against gay marriage as well. Nature does not always influence nurture!
Jesus didn't speak about many things that are now major topics for Christianity to address. But in any case, your question of how Christianity moves forward is valid. You can take that two ways. One; Christians are left with the facts he gave us, and we must interpret them as is. (i.e. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of homosexuality, hmmm, maybe we won't do that). Or two; your particular religious sect still believes in modern revelation, in which case, all that do have spoken very much against gay marriage.
Arizona, when does your book come out? Man it is kinda text heavy and dominating. I know a great editor if you need.
BTW, Do you think most of the people are actually taking the time and reading your long essays or do you just want to get things off your chest?
It kinda says something about your personality, based on the exaggerated posts. Its a little much.
Wow, I didn't know that my opinion was so boring! Well...lol..what's a guy to do? I subscribe to other political forums and my comments would be seen as short there. I guess it depends on the audience that reads them.
I'm not sure what you are thinking my posts say about me, but I hope, by now at least, some things are clear. Even though the other forums that I post on are obviously made up of a diferent type of reader, my posts aren't typically this long. I think this past election has really awakened me to what we as a conservative movement stand to loose. Not only was the one party that we were forced to vote for decimated, but our cause as a whole is laughed and mocked by tha msss media. I think now that we have a president elect that is sooooo far different from me, on sooooo many issues, it is hard to not feel outraged, and use the internet as a healthy outlet for it. Heck, look at his one! It is already getting long and you didn't raelly address any issues!
I'm reading one right now, It's well articulated and.. yawn.. thought out..
yawn.. " excuse me ".. professional ..zzzzzzzzzzzzzz &#@$&(&$%$
SNFJHUOHRYTR#$%%*(*)_HBR..zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
actually I wish I was dedicated enough to write out more than
a couple of smart ass lines, bottom line is hetero, homo, who cares, live and let live.
It is annoying when people act like everything is so black and white, liberal or conservative. What ever happened to the middle?
Despite everything that's been said, I haven't heard one valid reason against gay marriage that is political or legal, and does it really matter what the religious reason's are, our legal system is suppose to be separate. If we are going to rely so much on the religious views of the majority, how we much different from places in the middle east in that regard?
he has already stated that he wants to create a "welfare state" for our country
I would like to see a citation for this quote; as I believe it was either a complete fabrication that he said that or it was entirely taken out of context.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arizona sunset
Jesus didn't speak about many things that are now major topics for Christianity to address. But in any case, your question of how Christianity moves forward is valid. You can take that two ways. One; Christians are left with the facts he gave us, and we must interpret them as is. (i.e. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of homosexuality, hmmm, maybe we won't do that). Or two; your particular religious sect still believes in modern revelation, in which case, all that do have spoken very much against gay marriage.
It's also very unfair to pick and choose which acts that the Bible refers to as sin are still sins in this day and age.
I challenge you to look in your closet and not find a single item made of two different fabrics. Or maybe next time you're out and see someone eating shellfish stone them to death as was the punishment for such sin.
It's very presumptuous and arrogant to assume that you know how God actually intended for the Bible to be written or that you know His definition of "traditional family."
Do you honestly think that God doesn't encourage love and commitment between two people? Isn't God love?
Well let me say thank you for being open to this "constructive dialogue". In my experience with liberalism, this kind of discussion would have most likely have ended on page two. If that!
I am fully aware that the term Christian is a very over encompassing title for many different religious sects. Believe me! No one is more aware of this than me. But even though each may indeed have contradictory individual doctrines that enable them to stand out within the greater realm of organized religion, they also share many of the same doctrinal principles that crate much of the Christian right. Hence, the reason they are all called Christians. These tenets include; pro-traditional family, pro-life, pro-capitalism, etc. So yes, they each do have different doctrinal teachings (i.e. "their own interpretations of the Bible) but when you look past that, their views of the societal world are very much the same. So no, I do not take back my statement that liberalism does not quite "sync up" with Christianity.
Look at it this way. We now have the most left president elect that we have ever had. He does not deny it, and he offers no apologize for feeling this way. So if he is indeed going to be the face and literal spokesman for modern day liberalism, it is easy to see how the things he stands for don't quite add up to a Christian attitude of the world. I repeat; Obama openly supporters infanticide. I don't care if he is the Pope. If he supports infanticide, that alone makes him not Christian. Not only that, but he believes in all sorts of interpretations of the family (though he isn't so far left as people think on that), he has already stated that he wants to create a "welfare state" for our country. I don't know about you, but at least to the religion that I subscribe to, that is a pretty big slap in the face to Christianity. So I guess I should redefine what I said. It isn't that every Christian individual, that finds SOME SMALL tenets of liberalism to be correct, is in error. But it is the same individuals that believe in “Obama Liberalism” that tends to change things a great deal. The only problem is; with liberalism, there aren't too many degrees of variance. Their leaders don't allow for it!! With Obama now the face for liberalism, and his Democrat battalion catering to his every want, we are more likely not going to be hearing to much from the Mike Huckabees of the world.
Continuing one, you ask if I believe in the death penalty. The answer is quite simply no. I do not however like the fact that my tax money goes to keeping murderers and rapists in jail. I personally feel though that we as humans should not play God. If you are a Christian, you know that those people will have to answer for their actions some day. Do I believe in war? Absolutely!! But here is the stipulation; it must be condoned. But am I one of these pansies that sit around and believes in the “Pre-Pearl Harbor” mentality of "let them come first." NO! If the war is legitimately justified, and it is designed to keep the murdering terrorists "over there", than all power to us. I personally do not feel that the Vietnam War fell into this category, but I do feel like the War on Terrorism is more than justified, and a LONG time coming. With that said, I am appalled at your total ignorance in saying that war is the same as abortion. (!!!) Even IF you feel that war is unjustified in all cases, at least the soldiers fighting for us can protest themselves. Tell me; what in the world does an infant have to protect itself with. It certainly does not have the protection of our President elect's "version" of the "living" constitution, of the murderous doctors, or, you know, THE LOVING MOTHER!!!! So, while I am in NO way a war monger, I believe that it is justified, especially in this case at present. What were we supposed to do? Sit down over tea and crumpets and read "Peace for Beginners" with Suddam and Osama?! Abortion doesn't even begin to apply here!
What does it matter if homosexuality was a common practice during the time when the Bible was "written"? First off, the message doesn't change depending on the time in which it was written. And secondly, I find that somewhat hard to believe since the Bible is a conglomeration of many different time periods, compiled into one book. Sure, at the death of Christ, homosexuality was a hot time, but at the beginning (especially) and throughout, I don’t think so. While homosexuality is widely accepted in California, the people certainty voted against gay marriage as well. Nature does not always influence nurture!
Jesus didn't speak about many things that are now major topics for Christianity to address. But in any case, your question of how Christianity moves forward is valid. You can take that two ways. One; Christians are left with the facts he gave us, and we must interpret them as is. (i.e. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of homosexuality, hmmm, maybe we won't do that). Or two; your particular religious sect still believes in modern revelation, in which case, all that do have spoken very much against gay marriage.
Hence, the reason they are all called Christians. These tenets include; pro-traditional family, pro-life, pro-capitalism, etc. So yes, they each do have different doctrinal teachings (i.e. "their own interpretations of the Bible) but when you look past that, their views of the societal world are very much the same.
1) Both of my grandparents are ministers and they are pro-choice. Who are you to say what other Christians believe? "Christian" is just a title. You try to live as Christ lived. That not only deals with abortion, or gay rights...it also has to do with helping the poor, aiding those in need, etc. That is what Jesus went around doing. What does capitalism have to do with being liberal??
"...he wants to create a "welfare state" for our country. I don't know about you, but at least to the religion that I subscribe to, that is a pretty big slap in the face to Christianity."
2) Actually no, that is what Christianity is all about. You don't think Jesus would take from the tax collectors and give to the poor?
"What does it matter if homosexuality was a common practice during the time when the Bible was "written"? First off, the message doesn't change depending on the time in which it was written. And secondly, I find that somewhat hard to believe since the Bible is a conglomeration of many different time periods, compiled into one book. Sure, at the death of Christ, homosexuality was a hot time, but at the beginning (especially) and throughout, I don’t think so."
3) It matters because if it was such a hot topic. And so widely accepted and practiced in ALL of the locations that Jesus traveled too, it would seem that Jesus would have preached against it if he felt it was wrong. Do you not think that its ironic that he did not mention it one time in ALL of his sermons?
I'm interested in hearing your responses to these 3 topics.
What happend to the separtion between Church and State?
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How very succinct of you! 
