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Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
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Reputation: 6670
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomocox
You are correct. It is not the faith, it is the religion. I totally and wholeheartedly agree that man's involvement in religion is abominable. What separates Christ from all the "others" is that He was never about himself or did he teach/preach selfish behaviors. There are no promises of virgins in heaven for deeds done on Earth, there is in fact only one promise that separates Christ from all others. He promised that those who believe in him should have ever lasting life. (John 3:16)
Once again, I extol anyone to pick up a Bible, study it throughout, and tell me how living the life it advocates would harm anyone. It is all about love, peace, and Hope. ........Christ's love is a gift, not a forced behavior.
Fair enough. Then the "rub" is, what constitutes "forced behavior"? For some, it may be at the end of a gun. But for others it includes using the power of the state to force people to live by someone else's religious code..... i.e: abortion, homosexuality, same-sex marriage, education ("evolution"), etc.
And whenever there's been the inevitable pushback, some Christians have even taken to playing the "victim" card, claiming they are being "persecuted" by "liberals" and the "intellectual elite". When the fact is nobody really gives a rat's patootie about Christians or anyone else's faith. But what alot of folks DO care about and will vigorously resist, is having someone else try to tell them what their values will be. And I don't think that alot of the "born again" folks appreciate (or even care) how profoundly offensive, intrusive, and inappropriate that is, especially in a democracy.
Notice that no one's been complaining about the Hindus, or the Buddhists, or the B'hais, or the Jews..... only about the overbearing, bible-thumping, fundamentalist Christianists, and their similarly intolerant brethern, the Islamists.... there's a reason for that!
All that said, understood re: the dilemma when your faith contradicts the law and the surrounding culture. But what's the answer, especially when your faith means depriving others of their rights? With their growing Muslim population, the Europeans are struggling with this very issue now. And BTW, would appreciate not hearing that "the founding fathers were Christians, blah, blah"... regardless, they created a democracy, not a theocracy.
The christiann religion was here when before this nation was discovered or founded and will be here when we die.Nations have come and gone and it is still here.
Can't you come up with something a bit less depressing?
Fair enough. Then the "rub" is, what constitutes "forced behavior"? For some, it may be at the end of a gun. But for others it includes using the power of the state to force people to live by someone else's religious code..... i.e: abortion, homosexuality, same-sex marriage, education ("evolution"), etc.
And whenever there's been the inevitable pushback, some Christians have even taken to playing the "victim" card, claiming they are being "persecuted" by "liberals" and the "intellectual elite". When the fact is nobody really gives a rat's patootie about Christians or anyone else's faith. But what alot of folks DO care about and will vigorously resist, is having someone else try to tell them what their values will be. And I don't think that alot of the "born again" folks appreciate (or even care) how profoundly offensive, intrusive, and inappropriate that is, especially in a democracy.
Notice that no one's been complaining about the Hindus, or the Buddhists, or the B'hais, or the Jews..... only about the overbearing, bible-thumping, fundamentalist Christianists, and their similarly intolerant brethern, the Islamists.... there's a reason for that!
All that said, understood re: the dilemma when your faith contradicts the law and the surrounding culture. But what's the answer, especially when your faith means depriving others of their rights? With their growing Muslim population, the Europeans are struggling with this very issue now. And BTW, would appreciate not hearing that "the founding fathers were Christians, blah, blah"... regardless, they created a democracy, not a theocracy.
There is evidence that one of the most damaging factors of national demise is language. So shouldn't we all speak the same language if our nation is to survive? Note, I didn't say shouldn't we all speak English or Spanish, etc.
You don't have to look to the Christian theology to note the damage homosexuality can have on a civilization not to mention nationalism. I only need note the terrorism following the Prop 8 vote. Hatred is a one way street to homosexuals, they can hate straights without suffering, but if a straight says "boo" then its hate. Same goes for race. Blacks can use the "n" word 10 times in the same sentence and its ok, but let a white guy make fun of a black presidential figure, and its racism.
What I note about homosexuality is the tremendous self-centeredness that tags along. Don't tell me about hating or being anti-gay for you would be wrong. I don't condemn gays, but I do condemn their behavior, especially their political and social manners. I totally agree, and totally support a homosexual's freedom behind closed doors or even partially closed doors, but when a homosexual invades my space with lewdness, and sexuality that I keep behind my bedroom door only to be shared with my mate, that's where the line is drawn.
Henry VIII changed the official church of England from Roman Catholic to the Church of England so he could not be guilty of the sin of divorce. That is true hypocrisy. I agree with Martin Luther, change was necessary from the evil bishops, but Martin Luther didn't do it to behave badly. Most gays rail against law so they can be absolved of the act of self-discipline.
As I have read many threads on this forum, one of the most frequent misunderstandings I read of is the lack of knowledge about the separation of religion verses faith.
If possible, I challenge readers to study the message of Christ on their own without influence from their past disappointments. Odds are 90% of the people who are unchurched were churched at one time.
I genuinely believe that anyone who truly understands the message of Christ will agree with me. I challenge anyone of any denomination, religion or faith to independently study the message. Note: I said study, not just read. Study requires reading and then thinking about what you have read.
I started a thread like this one and it was removed for being off-topic. I wonder if that means I need to agree with you.
Anyway, I save it and here is one paragraph from my post. It was about the evangelical movement, since it is a political movement, not a religion.
To me, when I hear "the evangelical vote" it sounds more divisive than unifying. I mean, in the Bible there aren't left wing Christians and right wing Christians. You were either a believer or not. In John 18, Jesus says "My kingdom is not of this world," so how can we mix politics and Christianity when politics is definitely of this world?
I applaud your effort to challenge people on this topic. However, I think the reason many people have been turned off by Christianity is for the very reason of being “Churched” as you stated. Whether you describe the belief in Christ as a religion or a faith, I would say the way mankind has corrupted the true meaning and purpose of Christ can be traced to our very own need to institutionalize or faiths. By this, I mean creating, modifying, or politicizing what God intended for his Son.
As church goers, I feel people get caught up more in the concept of being a church member and the “feel good…..or bad” message from the preacher that we loose focus on the true word of God that is revealed in the Gospels so clearly. We focus on our own good deeds, or our sins and the manner to get them forgiven and find ways to make our selves look righteous and good. We find ourselves speaking in tongues or what I would consider babbling. We become complacent and accept theories of non-spiritual individuals to make the belief in Christ a more open minded religion with a tolerable doctrine.
I believe that God is not tolerable. I believe we are all sinners and will continue to sin till the day we die. I believe that no matter how hard we try to be self righteous or better than others or how many times we ask for forgiveness, we are and will always be guilty of the very sins we try so hard to over come.
For this very reason, I thank God for the gift of Jesus Christ. As my pastor articulates from the Bible, we don’t need forgiveness from God any longer. That price was paid over 2000 years ago. The charge…sin, the vertic…guilty, the penalty…death. The result…paid in full by the grace of God. We pitiful human beings had nothing to do with our own salvation, nor will we ever. Don’t think for a minutes you had something to do with Gods majesty and grace. We don’t need forgiveness, what we need is LIFE, the very spiritual life that was given to Christ at the resurrection and that filled the souls of the apostles on the Day of Atonement. That same life that comes into you and lives inside you once you accept Jesus Christ. That is the true power that is given to you by the Holy Spirit. The power to not only read the Bible, but truly understand it and power to witness for him in a manner that you don’t run people up flag poles. The power to see the world for what it is….a lost place saturated in sin. In other words, a place that is apart from God. And the power of serenity to understand that Jesus for all his glory never forced any one to follow him or believe in him. It was and still is free will.
I believe the only sin attributable to man, is the unbelief in HIM. There’s nothing else to do than to believe and give thanks. The spirit will guide you through life, and as said in the scripture, a life of trials and tribulations. A life in sin, but sin that God will never see thanks to his grace and gift that is Jesus Christ or if you want to call it…Christianity.
Last edited by Stardust2900; 11-18-2008 at 06:15 PM..
Reason: misc
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,852 posts, read 10,456,964 times
Reputation: 6670
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomocox
There is evidence that one of the most damaging factors of national demise is language. So shouldn't we all speak the same language if our nation is to survive? Note, I didn't say shouldn't we all speak English or Spanish, etc.
You don't have to look to the Christian theology to note the damage homosexuality can have on a civilization not to mention nationalism. I only need note the terrorism following the Prop 8 vote. Hatred is a one way street to homosexuals, they can hate straights without suffering, but if a straight says "boo" then its hate. Same goes for race. Blacks can use the "n" word 10 times in the same sentence and its ok, but let a white guy make fun of a black presidential figure, and its racism.
What I note about homosexuality is the tremendous self-centeredness that tags along. Don't tell me about hating or being anti-gay for you would be wrong. I don't condemn gays, but I do condemn their behavior, especially their political and social manners. I totally agree, and totally support a homosexual's freedom behind closed doors or even partially closed doors, but when a homosexual invades my space with lewdness, and sexuality that I keep behind my bedroom door only to be shared with my mate, that's where the line is drawn.
Henry VIII changed the official church of England from Roman Catholic to the Church of England so he could not be guilty of the sin of divorce. That is true hypocrisy. I agree with Martin Luther, change was necessary from the evil bishops, but Martin Luther didn't do it to behave badly. Most gays rail against law so they can be absolved of the act of self-discipline.
I notice you avoided the question re: personal values vs democracy. In any case, your opinions re: homosexuality (or any other way of life) are irrelevant to the issue of rights. No matter how "immoral" you may think they are, as long as gay folks aren't hurting anyone, under the Constitution they have the same rights as everyone else. And who are you to deprive them of that, just because you have some "tradition" or "religion" that says so?
And if you believe you have some "right" to not be offended by behaviors you don't approve of, well good luck with that one. No doubt alot of folks have similar objections to minorities, inter-racial marriages, tattoos, assertive women, noisy cellphones, whatever..... welcome to the Modern World (and the solution is called "tolerance")!
Too bad you're not as as obsessed with the bible's other teachings (Love, the Golden Rule, etc.) as you seem to be re: issues like "homo-sek-tuality", because it would certainly be a much more convincing demonstration of Christianity for us "heathens".
I notice you avoided the question re: personal values vs democracy. In any case, your opinions re: homosexuality (or any other way of life) are irrelevant to the issue of rights. No matter how "immoral" you may think they are, as long as gay folks aren't hurting anyone, under the Constitution they have the same rights as everyone else. And who are you to deprive them of that, just because you have some "tradition" or "religion" that says so?
And if you believe you have some "right" to not be offended by behaviors you don't approve of, well good luck with that one. No doubt alot of folks have similar objections to minorities, inter-racial marriages, tattoos, assertive women, noisy cellphones, whatever..... welcome to the Modern World (and the solution is called "tolerance")!
Too bad you're not as as obsessed with the bible's other teachings (Love, the Golden Rule, etc.) as you seem to be re: issues like "homo-sek-tuality", because it would certainly be a much more convincing demonstration of Christianity for us "heathens".
I hate to argue with people who can't argue a point. Stay on topic and read what I wrote not what you wish I had said.
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,852 posts, read 10,456,964 times
Reputation: 6670
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomocox
I hate to argue with people who can't argue a point. Stay on topic and read what I wrote not what you wish I had said.
I think you just proved the point, that you only see what you want to, and when you get uncomfortable, hate & intolerance always seems to be what you fall back on.
In any case, the only reason we're having this discussion is because the GOP gave so much attention to and exploited this otherwise fanatic fringe known as "faith-based" voters. But fortunately, after the last election, Republicans have seen the future, and I'd wager y'all are going to go back to being just another fringe curiosity again, like the Birchers, the White Supremacists, the Flat Earth Society, the KKK, et al.....
I am very comfortable with my position, you however, won't allow that I just might be right. I can't prove it, but that's the beautiful part of faith, it's like Love, you can't justify it, but if you have ever been there you know its real.
I know that history is on my side, and my faith gives me tremendous confidence that I am ok.
Good night, and I truly wish for God's richest blessings for you, which I know you can have.
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