US (Bush and Co) refuse to sign Cluster-bomb treaty (military, rating, terrorism)
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It is a very effective way to destroy a runway! Instead of "one hole" to repair (by the enemy) - they have 100's -
Cluster bombs are a very effective tool in warfare
Our military should keep this tool -
Yeah, but allowing our "ally" to misuse them, and kill scores of of civilians is bad for the USA. It's like allowing someone to use Claymores to cover a street in urban warfare where there's population.
Kindly review Israel's use of cluster bombs in Lebanon. It's bad. Bad for the USA and our rep:
Israel may have violated agreements with Washington on the use of US-made cluster bombs in its war with Hizbullah in Lebanon last summer, the state department said today. The Bush administration must now decide what action, if any, to take against Israel for its use of the weapons against towns and villages from which Hizbullah fighters fired rockets.
Opinion among US officials was divided, the New York Times reported at the weekend. The paper said some middle-ranking officials at the Pentagon and the state department were arguing that Israel had violated prohibitions on using cluster munitions against civilian areas.
However, others in both departments thought Israel's use of the weapons was justified on the grounds of self-defence in a conflict that cost the lives of 159 Israeli soldiers and civilians, the paper said. At least 850 Lebanese died in the fighting.
Tough action from the US is believed to be unlikely because of the White House's staunch support for the Israeli government.
Cluster bombs scatter hundreds of small "bomblets", many of which fail to explode, over a wide area. Inquisitive children may later pick these up, or civilians could step on them.
Israeli forces dropped an estimated 1 million cluster bomblets in southern Lebanon last summer.
* In Vietnam, people are still being killed as a result of cluster bombs and other objects left by the US and Vietnamese military forces. Estimates range up to 300 people killed annually by unexploded ordnance.[26]
* During the 1999 NATO war against Yugoslavia U.S. and Britain dropped 1,400 cluster bombs in Kosovo. Within the first year after the end of the war more than 100 civilians died from unexploded British and American bombs. Unexploded cluster bomblets caused more civilian deaths than landmines.[27]
* Israel used cluster bombs in Lebanon in 1978 and in the 1980s. Those weapons used more than two decades ago by Israel continue to affect Lebanon.[28] During the 2006 war in Lebanon Israel dropped around 1,800 cluster bombs on Hezbollah-controlled areas[29].
* In Vietnam, people are still being killed as a result of cluster bombs and other objects left by the US and Vietnamese military forces. Estimates range up to 300 people killed annually by unexploded ordnance.[26]
* During the 1999 NATO war against Yugoslavia U.S. and Britain dropped 1,400 cluster bombs in Kosovo. Within the first year after the end of the war more than 100 civilians died from unexploded British and American bombs. Unexploded cluster bomblets caused more civilian deaths than landmines.[27]
* Israel used cluster bombs in Lebanon in 1978 and in the 1980s. Those weapons used more than two decades ago by Israel continue to affect Lebanon.[28] During the 2006 war in Lebanon Israel dropped around 1,800 cluster bombs on Hezbollah-controlled areas[29].
Yeah, but the pro-war folks want to keep using them because they are 'expensive' and make so many holes in 'runways', as well as 'running kids'. LOL!
Why not implement a self-destruct or tracking feature so that unexploded bomblets can be recovered? Either way, civilian causalities are just part of war, anyone ever checked the statistics for WWII!?
And of course, the conventional warfare argument comes up. With counter-terrorism operations people seem to forget that terrorist walk amongst regular people. This isn't like a war where there are established military bases, troop concentrations, and supply depots. This is a mind game.
If we went to war with China tomorrow, that Cluster Bomb ban would be thrown out so quick you would never have known it was there!
Why not implement a self-destruct or tracking feature so that unexploded bomblets can be recovered? Either way, civilian causalities are just part of war, anyone ever checked the statistics for WWII!?
And of course, the conventional warfare argument comes up. With counter-terrorism operations people seem to forget that terrorist walk amongst regular people. This isn't like a war where there are established military bases, troop concentrations, and supply depots. This is a mind game.
If we went to war with China tomorrow, that Cluster Bomb ban would be thrown out so quick you would never have known it was there!
If Iran had given the Lebanese cluster bombs, and they were used on Israeli cities and people, and the bomblets left behind were maiming Israeli children, the USA would be singing a different tune. It'd be called outright "terror". The media here would be wailing in uproar.
What if we did go to war with China, and they were able to secure a beachead in Vancouver, BC with the help of some of their colonists that live there? What if they started using them on Seattle?
What if we did go to war with China, and they were able to secure a beachead in Vancouver, BC with the help of some of their colonists that live there? What if they started using them on Seattle?
There'd never be a reason to use military munitions in Seattle, American Military units would never hide amonst civilillians and endanger them in a cowardly attempt to ward off attack or generate a propaganda story by causing the enemy to kill civillians.
Quote:
Civilian deaths from unexploded cluster bomblets
* In Vietnam, people are still being killed as a result of cluster bombs and other objects left by the US and Vietnamese military forces. Estimates range up to 300 people killed annually by unexploded ordnance.[26]
* During the 1999 NATO war against Yugoslavia U.S. and Britain dropped 1,400 cluster bombs in Kosovo. Within the first year after the end of the war more than 100 civilians died from unexploded British and American bombs. Unexploded cluster bomblets caused more civilian deaths than landmines.[27]
* Israel used cluster bombs in Lebanon in 1978 and in the 1980s. Those weapons used more than two decades ago by Israel continue to affect Lebanon.[28] During the 2006 war in Lebanon Israel dropped around 1,800 cluster bombs on Hezbollah-controlled areas[29].
When I visited the WWI battlefield at Verdun in the mid 1980's there were signs everywhere warning people not to touch metal objects they may find on the ground because it may be unexploded ordance - over 65 years after the battle. There was a steady flow of stories coming out of europe 20,30,40 years after WWII about farmers getting blown up when they accidently ran their plows over an old Artillery shell or workers in London finding old german bombs buried on some construction site.
This part of modern warfare. The only difference here is these battlefields fresher and these are the kind of ordance found on the modern battlefield. This is no reason to ban these weapons.
Quote:
Yeah, but allowing our "ally" to misuse them, and kill scores of of civilians is bad for the USA. It's like allowing someone to use Claymores to cover a street in urban warfare where there's population.
Then lobby congress to ban selling them to Isreal. The solution is not to strip our forces of a weapon they need.
How do you feel about land mines? In WW1 they used poison gas, maybe we should bring that back. I guess we could always resort to the nuke too. We need all of these weapons and should use them.
(off topic: I was reading about WW2 recently and ironically, Adolf Hitler forbade his generals from using poison gas on the Red Army, presumably on scruples and his experience from WW1 -- and he could have won the war with it. Kinda bizarre given his mass-murdering reputation.)
Please review your definitions and uses of air delivered weapons:
Air delivered mines are mines designed as area denial weapons. they explode when touched by something (goat, child, soldier) some time after being dropped.
Cluster bombs designed to destroy infantry and aircraft. they are large grenades that explode on contact or after a delay. The fragments damage aircraft beyond repair and kill groups of soldiers.
Runway cratering weapons are large bombs designed to penetrate runways or roads and blow large holes in them. Bunker busters are a subset of these weapons.
I believe that cluster mines violate the international rules of war because the locations of the mines cannot be mapped for later removal. These are a weapon of terror and should be banned. Cluster bombs and runway cratering bombs have a legitimate use in war. War does not require indiscriminate slaughter of civilians or their livestock to be executed. To do so makes the perpetrator a terrorist.
Cluster bombs are very expensive, I reckon Bush doesn't want them to go to waste.. And they are not designed to kill civilians, they were designed for conventional warfare, something that hasn't come up since World War II.
And I doubt Obama will sign the cluster bomb treaty either.
This doesn't even make sense. Conventional means non-nuclear, which is ALL that has come up since WW II, Thank God. Cluster bombs have been used heavily in Afghanistan.
I believe that cluster mines violate the international rules of war because the locations of the mines cannot be mapped for later removal. These are a weapon of terror and should be banned.
Why can't they be mapped? As I stated earlier, SOP is to map & execute EOD ops in areas where the weapons are deployed.
Additionally all US Air & Artillery delivered mines all contain self destruct mechanisms.
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