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While some good information Kdog, I would refute its objectivity. The first paragraph is from the website itself to which Wikipedia then used.
Being they are openly pro-Israeli and so say it, do you think this might explain the inflated number of deaths as opposed to say the UN or B'tselem-The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories? Just saying.
Quote:
The Britain Israel Communications and Research Centre (BICOM) is a United Kingdom based organisation which acts to create a more supportive environment for Israel in the UK.[1] To achieve this objective BICOM issues materials on the history, economy, culture and politics of Israel, the Middle East peace plan, terrorism in the Middle-East, UK-Israel relations and foreign policy and the future of Arabia. An article in the European Jewish Press described it as "a pro-Israel British lobby group".[2] An article in Haaretz described it as "a pro-Israel advocacy group".[3]
Being they are openly pro-Israeli and so say it, do you think this might explain the inflated number of deaths as opposed to say the UN or B'tselem-The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories? Just saying.
I didn't notice any discrepancy. The number of actual deaths add up if you take into account that the BICOM numbers go back to 2001, whereas the B'Tselem numbers started at 2004. The BICOM study also included statistics for Israelis that were wounded as well. The wounded figures are something like 10:1 over deaths. That's completely believable. The article is also useful in pointing out how small of a country Israel is, and the fact that Hamas rockets keep reaching further into Israel to the point that soon the entire country would be at risk. The article also explains the impact to the quality of life of the citizens of the towns that are constantly being shelled. One might not be killed if they're living underground, but that's no way to live.
No need to defend yourself to anyone Tinman-- others are out to smear anyone who disagrees with them on this issue--that's just part of their game.
[Mod edit]
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01
NO I do not despise jewish people... The bible was written by man. Like all men those who wrote it had an agenda. How many times has it been rewritten? Revised and why?
I do not hate Israel. Never have never will. That said I don't believe everything they say and I know for a fact that they care very little what problems their actions cause for us. I also know that they are a very selective friend. Israel is loyal to Israel... Period. They enjoy the massive amount of aid we send their way. They in turn will pay us lip service.
Hate them? No I don't hate them. I just don't trust any dog that bites the hand that feeds it. Israel has bitten us more times than can be counted.
I have nothing but respect for their Military and its abilities. I admire what the Israeli's have been able to accomplish. I admire them for their strength. Been to Israel a few times. Trained with their military as well. Because I like or admire does not mean that I trust. Nor do I support unconditionally as this gov has for far too long.
Last edited by TnHilltopper; 01-03-2009 at 01:38 PM..
Reason: lets not make it personal and avert a flame war
I didn't notice any discrepancy. The number of actual deaths add up if you take into account that the BICOM numbers go back to 2001, whereas the B'Tselem numbers started at 2004. The BICOM study also included statistics for Israelis that were wounded as well. The wounded figures are something like 10:1 over deaths. That's completely believable. The article is also useful in pointing out how small of a country Israel is, and the fact that Hamas rockets keep reaching further into Israel to the point that soon the entire country would be at risk. The article also explains the impact to the quality of life of the citizens of the towns that are constantly being shelled. One might not be killed if they're living underground, but that's no way to live.
Good point and one I should have noticed right off, my bad. I did notice one other interesting tid bit of information is that at least BICOM distinguishes between the various arms of Hamas as oppose to just lumping Hamas into one homogeneous group. While it started out with three wings, political, militant, and religious, most folks now suggest that it is just two with the religious wing being absorbed in varying degrees by both the political and militant wings.
From the various discussions on this subject, one common theme I see is folks using terms like, "The Jews", "The Palestinians" or even failing to make the subtle distinctions with Hamas that at least to that websites credit, they do. While it may seem like pointless semantics to some, I can appreciate the details when it comes to complex issues.
Some people will always support the most outwardly pathetic or disadvantaged in ANY fight, regardless of the mess.
I am of the opinion that both Palestinians and the Israelis are equally dense and to blame, with special reservation of animosity towards Arab nations, who do nothing to use their oil wealth to help the Palestinians 9They have more than enough land and resources to actually carve a new nation wholesale for the Palestinians) because Israel is always a convenient diversion for the masses who need a channel to divert frustrations with their own governments.
And one more thing. Israel is supposed to be the US ally right? Then why is it that the only time one of the US vessels was attacked was by an ally? Its ship viciously attacked and the survivors who jumped into the sea were machined-gunned? The survivors were ordered not to speak about the incident & the 'ally' of course, with the help of those in the US government, tried to potray the incident as a case of mistaken identity? Anyone remember the USS Liberty?
So people...before 911 there was the USS Liberty. Remember the very few still alive survivors, read their stories and understand...
Various statistics related to the conflict are kept by various observers. Among the best compilations of those are maintained by B'Tselem, aka The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, which, as the name would imply, is an Israeli organization. Some notes from them on Israeli deaths in recent years...
Based on B'Tselem’s research, from June 2004 to the end of 2007, eleven Israelis, four of them minors, were killed by Qassam rockets fired by Palestinians. Another Israeli civilian and one foreign national were killed by Qassam rockets that struck settlements in the Gaza Strip. Qassam rocket fire also killed five Palestinians, two of them minors.
According to UN figures, in 2005, 1,194 Qassam rockets were fired at Israel (about 100 a month), in 2006 the rocket fire increased to 1,786 (an average of 149 a month), and in 2007, 1,331 (an average of 111 a month).
So, 4,311 rockets, 11 deaths. What are these things, firecrackers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf
I can and I will. The early days of Israeli independence were characterized by an invasion by at least five Arab armies and the subsequent crushing defeat of those forces and their allies in Palestine by the Israeli forces.
The resulting loss of life -- on both sides -- was a direct result of that invasion and its repulsion. It could not be described as a slaughter by any reasonable person.
The loss of life was a result of the invasion of other Arab countries and it's repulsion by the Israelis?
Oh, my, God. Give me a break. The other Arab nations came in to try to get rid of the basically "invading" Israelis.
No slaughters?
Ever heard of Sabra, Shatila, or Jenin?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper
So if we use the above data and extrapolate for the UN's missing 2004 statistic by adding 1000 (low ball) then we come up with 5300+ rockets fired for 15 dead, one third being Palestinian. or about one death per 353 rockets fired and a 33% chance of killing one of their own.
If the Palestinians wanted a more effective means of killing Israeli's they might just want to open up a shop and sell Chinese lead painted toys, they might have a better success rate as apparently their rocket fatality rates probably more closely resemble ours on the fourth of July.
That is just what I was thinking. These rockets do not appear that deadly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog
Here's another view which explains in greater detail the impact of the rockets.
Both the Grad and split engine Qassam 2 can strike over 12km, placing the cities of Ashkelon (population 110,000), Netivot (27,000), Sderot(23,000) and the other population centres in the western Negev within range.[ii]
This effectively places close to 190,000 Israeli citizens at risk, which in a country of 7,250,000 makes up about 2.6% of the population. Given the difference in population size, in the UK the equivalent would be 1,560,000 citizens.[iii]
45% of the rocket attacks have been fired on the southern Israeli city of Sderot.[iv]
Sderot has a population of 23,000, which is similar to Teesdale (24,900). In a country of 7,250,000, Sderot's residents make up roughly 1/300 of Israel's population. Given the difference in total population size, a comparable UK city would have a population of 190,000, such as Newcastle, Preston, or Derby.[v]
In 2005 the total number of Israelis killed or wounded by rockets or mortar shell fire was 90. In 2006 this figure had risen to 91. In 2007 this figure stood at 125. To date in February 2008, already 31 Israelis have been killed or wounded. If the current rate continues, over 250 Israelis will have been killed or wounded by rocket or mortar shells by the end of 2008.[vi]
Since 2001 rocket and mortar shell fire has been directly responsible for the deaths of 24 Israelis and the wounding of 620. This statistic does not take into account the massive psychological cost borne by the 190,000 Israelis who live within striking range. With a population almost ten times that of Israel, the corresponding UK figures would be 240 killed and 6,200 wounded in a city the size of Newcastle. [vii]
90% of Sderot residents have experienced a Qassam falling on their street or one street adjacent. 30% of Sderot residents suffer from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. Children in Sderot exhibit higher levels of fear (62%), avoidance behaviour (50%), behavioural problems (22%), problems in school (28%), somatic (stress-related) problems (26%), regression (31%) and difficulty sleeping (47%) than any comparable Israeli city by population size and socio-economic demographics.[viii]
Source: Rockets from Gaza: Facts and Figures (http://www.bicom.org.uk/background/research-and-analysis/israeli-palestinian-arena/rockets-from-gaza--facts-and-figures - broken link)
Nice trying to run round the subject, and then coming up with 24 dead, which frankly since your numbers include a few extra years, is really not far off of those already supplied.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog
the fact that Hamas rockets keep reaching further into Israel to the point that soon the entire country would be at risk. The article also explains the impact to the quality of life of the citizens of the towns that are constantly being shelled. One might not be killed if they're living underground, but that's no way to live.
Yes, at a relatively low risk, it seems.
How is the quality of life of the Palestinians?
Even Israeli citizens of Palestinian origin are discriminated against. Read about the policy of not allowing Israeli citizens of Palestinian descent to not be able to bring their spouses from Occupied Palestine into Isreal to live with them. God forbid, Israel doesn't want any MORE Palestinians living among them!
So the Israeli Citizens of Palestinian descent are discriminated against. Good to know that in Israel all her citizens are equal. If this is how they treat their own citizens, how do you expect them to treat other Palestinians?
Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe
So? You envison mass-scale deportation of the Palestinian people to another land? Hitler would be proud of you.
Yup, just get rid of them.
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