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Perhaps you have some insights here that I lack. I have never, ever understood how most of the women seem to support the restrictions. Thinking back to the fall of the Shah of Iran, I recall a lot of discussion as to how this was going to be awful for the ladies. Yet, it seems like they actually welcomed the new restrictions, and passed this attitude on to their daughters.
HA HA, good lord man, I'm not touching that one, I wouldn't dare presume to understand the mind of a woman, Muslim, Christian or other... Seriously, its totally beyond my comprehension and I think BBC did a 1/2 program on NOW once about this very thing and I recall I came away saying.... HUH.!
Perhaps you have some insights here that I lack. I have never, ever understood how most of the women seem to support the restrictions. Thinking back to the fall of the Shah of Iran, I recall a lot of discussion as to how this was going to be awful for the ladies. Yet, it seems like they actually welcomed the new restrictions, and passed this attitude on to their daughters.
I can only suggest it's a matter of ingrained culture and tradition, impossible to justify or understand on a logical level. I can give you a very FAINT comparison right here inh the very secular, very enlightened West.
I'm a Catholic. The pope is our "spiritual leader" and to some extent can make decisions and statements that are morally binding upon Catholics..ie, they "must" (under penalty of serious moral law) obey these rules.
Here in the secular West, one might suppose that Catholics could be 'liberated' if a team of trained fighters simply sneaked into the Vatican one night, kidnapped the Pope, and hauled him off to some Caribbean island where he'd be well taken care of, but totally unable to 'reach out'....PRESTO, we've liberated Catholics fromj the authoritarian "rule" of the Pope...and they're "now free to move about the country", etc etc etc.
From a strictly logical, secular Western view, Catholics should WELCOME this...right? But they wouldn't. They'd HOWL in indignation. They'd DEMAND the Pope be released and that the rest of the 'do-gooders' henceforth leave him ALONE...right? Catholics, in that respect, wouldn't WANT to be 'freed'.
Don't know how accurate this analogy is, but if you take away the 'secular' part, take away decades of 'human rights' and women's place in society, and much of the whole notion of personal autonomy and freedom, isn't the situation just a BIT like that of the middle east's women? They KNOW they're not free....they have accepted that, and internalized that, and see it as 'the way it should be'....and they don't WANT to be 'liberated', and would get angry with anyone who TRIED.
Very strange thing, culture. I won't even get INTO the related subject of "bringing democracy to Iraq".....but I could.
The pope is our "spiritual leader" and to some extent can make decisions and statements that are morally binding upon Catholics..ie, they "must" (under penalty of serious moral law) obey these rules.
Here in the secular West, one might suppose that Catholics could be 'liberated' if a team of trained fighters simply sneaked into the Vatican one night, kidnapped the Pope, and hauled him off to some Caribbean island where he'd be well taken care of, but totally unable to 'reach out'....PRESTO, we've liberated Catholics fromj the authoritarian "rule" of the Pope...and they're "now free to move about the country", etc etc etc.
From a strictly logical, secular Western view, Catholics should WELCOME this...right? But they wouldn't. They'd HOWL in indignation. They'd DEMAND the Pope be released and that the rest of the 'do-gooders' henceforth leave him ALONE...right? Catholics, in that respect, wouldn't WANT to be 'freed'.
Don't know how accurate this analogy is, but if you take away the 'secular' part, take away decades of 'human rights' and women's place in society, and much of the whole notion of personal autonomy and freedom, isn't the situation just a BIT like that of the middle east's women? They KNOW they're not free....they have accepted that, and internalized that, and see it as 'the way it should be'....and they don't WANT to be 'liberated', and would get angry with anyone who TRIED.
Very strange thing, culture. I won't even get INTO the related subject of "bringing democracy to Iraq".....but I could.
Oh, I very well understand the Pope and the relationships with Catholics. In looking at the analogy, we would view this as appropriate for Catholics, but not expect the others to be mandated to follow this view (though we may think it wise).
In Iran, it seemed to be a matter of national mandate, no exceptions allowed. You couldn't choose to follow the restrictions or not, and those ladies who thought them to be excessive...it wasn't pleasant.
HA HA, good lord man, I'm not touching that one, I wouldn't dare presume to understand the mind of a woman, Muslim, Christian or other... Seriously, its totally beyond my comprehension and I think BBC did a 1/2 program on NOW once about this very thing and I recall I came away saying.... HUH.!
Saw an EXTREMELY compelling documentary a couple of years ago...WEIRD. The story of an American female (25 or so) and her friend, an Afghan lady of about 28. The Afghan lady had lived overseas..was educated...knew English...but had gone home because she was 'needed' by the family.
The American girl was invited into the sequestered world of Afghan womanhood...LOTS of strange secrets, but they had 'come to terms' with their very much inferior position.
ODDEST part was near the end. The Afghan girl, 19-year old poorly-educated brother was interviewed, with his sister interpreting, as he casually explained why HE had supremacy, as a male, over her...how much he and his father loved and cherished her, and how, if she defiled herself and her family by sneaking off with a boyfriend, how they'd HAVE to kill her.... they'd have no choice, for once she'd defiled herself in that way, the entire family's life would become unbearable in that society.
VERY wierd. The American girl, (by now a good friend) looked close to tears as she gave the final summary. She was a world traveler, and educated...but the 'gap' she'd seen with her Afghan friend was simply too wide to cross. There was just no way to ever "help" the lady, and no way she'd WANT that help. Depressing story, but highly interesting..
Saw an EXTREMELY compelling documentary a couple of years ago...WEIRD. The story of an American female (25 or so) and her friend, an Afghan lady of about 28. The Afghan lady had lived overseas..was educated...knew English...but had gone home because she was 'needed' by the family.
The American girl was invited into the sequestered world of Afghan womanhood...LOTS of strange secrets, but they had 'come to terms' with their very much inferior position.
ODDEST part was near the end. The Afghan girl, 19-year old poorly-educated brother was interviewed, with his sister interpreting, as he casually explained why HE had supremacy, as a male, over her...how much he and his father loved and cherished her, and how, if she defiled herself and her family by sneaking off with a boyfriend, how they'd HAVE to kill her.... they'd have no choice, for once she'd defiled herself in that way, the entire family's life would become unbearable in that society.
VERY wierd. The American girl, (by now a good friend) looked close to tears as she gave the final summary. She was a world traveler, and educated...but the 'gap' she'd seen with her Afghan friend was simply too wide to cross. There was just no way to ever "help" the lady, and no way she'd WANT that help. Depressing story, but highly interesting..
Exactly, and part of the issue (going back to the OP here) is how much of this would be accepted without push back if the external "evil" of Israel were to disappear. I really don't know the answer, but it is one of many issues that get kind of submerged in this fight against the "greater evil".
As I mentioned earlier though, not all of Islam is so strict, so it is possible that Islam can be every bit as compatible with the modern world as Christians or Jews can. Although it seems there are far more extremely fundamentalist types within the Muslim world and to the degree that these types of views are challenged have to come almost entirely from men.
mideast is a violent region with or without the jews. trust me if they were to pack up and leave in the morning the wars in the mideast would go on.
lets find somebody else to buy oil from asap.
Oh, I very well understand the Pope and the relationships with Catholics. In looking at the analogy, we would view this as appropriate for Catholics, but not expect the others to be mandated to follow this view (though we may think it wise).
In Iran, it seemed to be a matter of national mandate, no exceptions allowed. You couldn't choose to follow the restrictions or not, and those ladies who thought them to be excessive...it wasn't pleasant.
True. Remember that Iran today is pretty much a 'theocracy'..maybe one of the most 'hard line' Muslim theocracies along with Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Afghanistan, and a few more. MOST Muslim nation at least CLAIM to be secular.
Maybe what you're citing is based on the fact that in Iran, at the moment, the law pretty much IS the Koran....and vice-versa.
We HAD more-or-less Christian theocracies, way back 'when'. These don't exist any more, so comparisons are difficult.
I'm from the Middle East
And I am sad to the tune of this dialogue
Which assumes that we are as Arabs or Muslims, we will remain forever in the underdevelopment and conflict, and forget that there are difficult conditions we face in the Middle East
I'm talking about peoples here which they are suffering from political conflicts and dictatorial authorities , then there is the oil, whichbecause of it the major powers continues to interfere of our business and they are not serving us as peoples
What I say is stop thinking of us as backwards having a lot of money and think of us as real people, despite the many difficulties trying to create a better future
I'm from the Middle East
And I am sad to the tune of this dialogue
Which assumes that we are as Arabs or Muslims, we will remain forever in the underdevelopment and conflict, and forget that there are difficult conditions we face in the Middle East
I'm talking about peoples here which they are suffering from political conflicts and dictatorial authorities , then there is the oil, whichbecause of it the major powers continues to interfere of our business and they are not serving us as peoples
What I say is stop thinking of us as backwards having a lot of money and think of us as real people, despite the many difficulties trying to create a better future
So, do you disagree with the article linked in the original posting in this thread? If you do, why do you think it is inaccurate?
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