Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Google the crime stats for Vermont and compare them to, say Washington D.C. for a very clear example.
Quote:
Nobody's arguing to take away anybody's right to self-defense. Some would argue, and they have a basis - even if you disagree - that certain weapons should be removed from the equation. We already disallow the use of bazookas and napalm as forms of self-defense. The question is where to draw the line. You set up a strawman rather make a valid argument.
Yes they are. D.C.'s law requiring guns be locked up made self-defense during a sudden attack impossible. Hence it was ruled unconstitutional.
Maybe in your state but both bazookas and napalm are legal here if all federal rules on the bazookas are followed (NFA). I wouldn't care to have to explain to a jury that I used one for self-defense but it's not illegal either.
Quote:
This is a very weak argument. You've found one example of someone protecting his family with a gun. But in allowing that relatively free gun ownership, how many suicides happened? How many people were killed in heat-of-the-moment arguments? How many murders can be traced to stolen guns? How many accidental deaths?
Just because I used one example doesn't mean that's the only one. Self-defense with firearms occurrs far more in this country than any of the crimes you cited. Often with not even needing to fire a shot. And the suicide argument is very weak, people will kill themselves if they want to do so, humans are unfortunately very creative at coming up with ways to commit suicide.
Quote:
Sure you can find one example. But there are many, many more examples of those unintended consequences. Some are willing to put up with those other deaths, just to have the freedom of gun ownership. But don't argue that there are fewer deaths.
I'd say the estimated 800,000 to 2 million+ uses of firearms for self-defense each year more than justifies protecting the right to firearms.
Funny i've been to the US many times to visit family, im engaged to an American....not so ignorant about your culture. I've been through 7 states, experience different cultures, met many people. The U.S is not immune to stupidity and careless individuals. No where is.
If it's not "just the U.S." then answer me this: Why are you singling out the U.S.? Do you not realize that you are doing so?
If you "so familiar" please tell me when you have seen Americans with guns laying around on the floor, kitchen table and "under their pillow"?
You saw all that "driving through" 7 states eh?
How come you didn't know about the laws we already have about securing firearms?
Yea, real familiar. ahuh..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotslass
If i was liberal i wouldn't have 4 guns in my house now would I? Or go hunting every summer with my Dad. So your wrong.
Right...sure you do. Unless you can prove me wrong, I find it hard to believe. Oh and if you do, get ready to lose them with the way your current laws are headed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotslass
Your judging me, and you cannot admit that there are people that are careless with firearms. Its you that has the problem not me.
Oh I can admit people are careless. Already did! But it's NOT just the USA and it's not the fault of the gun. It's something we in America call "Per-sun-al" "ree-spon-si-bil-i-ty"
Quote:
Originally Posted by karfar
People who love guns get quite defensive when someone else points out to them the obsession w/guns in this country is over the top. I hate guns, can't understand why people are so touchy about the subject. Guns cause nothing but problems.
I don't own a gun. Shocked?
But I do believe and defend our constitution. Let me guess, you're one of those left wing, I believe porn is protected by the first amendment...but I'll ignore the second amendment because I don't agree with it, but I'm an open minded save the earth liberal - type? No?
If it's not "just the U.S." then answer me this: Why are you singling out the U.S.? Do you not realize that you are doing so?
If you "so familiar" please tell me when you have seen Americans with guns laying around on the floor, kitchen table and "under their pillow"?
You saw all that "driving through" 7 states eh?
How come you didn't know about the laws we already have about securing firearms?
Yea, real familiar. ahuh..
Right...sure you do. Unless you can prove me wrong, I find it hard to believe. Oh and if you do, get ready to lose them with the way your current laws are headed.
Oh I can admit people are careless. Already did! But it's NOT just the USA and it's not the fault of the gun. It's something we in America call "Per-sun-al" "ree-spon-si-bil-i-ty"
I don't own a gun. Shocked?
But I do believe and defend our constitution. Let me guess, you're one of those left wing, I believe porn is protected by the first amendment...but I'll ignore the second amendment because I don't agree with it, but I'm an open minded save the earth liberal - type? No?
My God you are naive. What age are you again?
I'm not wasting my time or energy justifying myself to a complete stranger 3000 miles away.
You obviously believe that no American has ever left a gun lying around....hmmmm
P.S check my photo album for my shotgun while wood pigeon hunting, or haven't you bothered to look already???
If it's not "just the U.S." then answer me this: Why are you singling out the U.S.? Do you not realize that you are doing so?
If you "so familiar" please tell me when you have seen Americans with guns laying around on the floor, kitchen table and "under their pillow"?
You saw all that "driving through" 7 states eh?
How come you didn't know about the laws we already have about securing firearms?
Yea, real familiar. ahuh..
Right...sure you do. Unless you can prove me wrong, I find it hard to believe. Oh and if you do, get ready to lose them with the way your current laws are headed.
Oh I can admit people are careless. Already did! But it's NOT just the USA and it's not the fault of the gun. It's something we in America call "Per-sun-al" "ree-spon-si-bil-i-ty"
I don't own a gun. Shocked?
But I do believe and defend our constitution. Let me guess, you're one of those left wing, I believe porn is protected by the first amendment...but I'll ignore the second amendment because I don't agree with it, but I'm an open minded save the earth liberal - type? No?
One more thing before I go, the reason i was singling out the US well obviously this is where it happened and happens regularly. If its not that its mall or school shootings. Only happened once here, Dunblane massacre. Handguns were banned afterwards and gun crime has not risen you do the math.
I dont exactly research where to keep a gun as i dont own any in the US. All my guns are here in Scotland with me, safe and secure.
Of course there are going to be careless people that leave guns lying around, if that wasn't true then why are incidents like these happening? Surely you must see that is a BIG problem there? I've discussed this with my family over there and they agree that this happens too often. They can admit that there is a problem there unlike some.
Ha you have no clue about Scottish law, sporting firearms will NEVER been outlawed, hunting is very much apart of our culture. We've been doing it even before the white man discovered the U.S.A so
Google the crime stats for Vermont and compare them to, say Washington D.C. for a very clear example.
It takes more than one comparison to prove the point you made. I'll just assume that there is no proof for your comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader
Yes they are. D.C.'s law requiring guns be locked up made self-defense during a sudden attack impossible. Hence it was ruled unconstitutional.
Maybe in your state but both bazookas and napalm are legal here if all federal rules on the bazookas are followed (NFA). I wouldn't care to have to explain to a jury that I used one for self-defense but it's not illegal either.
No - nobody's taking away anybody's right to self-defense. They are arguing that certain forms of self-defense are not worth the societal cost. If by some stretch of the imagination you are right that bazookas and napalm are allowed where you live, then you can easily extend the argument to weapons that are not allowed. Again, we are arguing where to draw an arbitrary line, and it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with whether you can practice self-defense or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader
Just because I used one example doesn't mean that's the only one. Self-defense with firearms occurrs far more in this country than any of the crimes you cited. Often with not even needing to fire a shot. And the suicide argument is very weak, people will kill themselves if they want to do so, humans are unfortunately very creative at coming up with ways to commit suicide.
I'd say the estimated 800,000 to 2 million+ uses of firearms for self-defense each year more than justifies protecting the right to firearms.
There's no way in hell that I'd believe that number. If there are that many per year, then my family would have had several opportunities each over the last 40 years to experience that. We are diverse, and live all over the country - mostly in densely populated areas. None of us has had even a single opportunity. So you're numbers are very suspect.
Further, there are several instances every year, in my rural community, of accidental deaths, suicides, and gun crimes. I can't remember a single event reported where someone used a gun to protect a life.
Of course, common sense is not prevalent in the gun debate.
It takes more than one comparison to prove the point you made. I'll just assume that there is no proof for your comment.
I'll take it you don't wish to face the facts. Read Lott's More Guns Less Crime book sometime too.
Quote:
No - nobody's taking away anybody's right to self-defense. They are arguing that certain forms of self-defense are not worth the societal cost. If by some stretch of the imagination you are right that bazookas and napalm are allowed where you live, then you can easily extend the argument to weapons that are not allowed. Again, we are arguing where to draw an arbitrary line, and it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with whether you can practice self-defense or not.
Guns locked up are useless for self-defense.
Quote:
There's no way in hell that I'd believe that number. If there are that many per year, then my family would have had several opportunities each over the last 40 years to experience that. We are diverse, and live all over the country - mostly in densely populated areas. None of us has had even a single opportunity. So you're numbers are very suspect.
Further, there are several instances every year, in my rural community, of accidental deaths, suicides, and gun crimes. I can't remember a single event reported where someone used a gun to protect a life.
Your anecdotal evidence, using logical fallacies ("I didn't experience it so it must not be true..."), simply doesn't stand up to the true facts.
I'll take it you don't wish to face the facts. Read Lott's More Guns Less Crime book sometime too.
You made the claim. It's your obligation to provide some proof.
And would that be John "Mary Rosh" Lott, whose data got lost and whose research can't be duplicated, and who is suing his critics (Leavitt)? Of course it would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader
Guns locked up are useless for self-defense.
So are tanks. That doesn't mean you don't have a right to self defense. Nobody is arguing that you don't have the right to self defense, which was your claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader
Your anecdotal evidence, using logical fallacies ("I didn't experience it so it must not be true..."), simply doesn't stand up to the true facts.
They are not true facts. If in America there are 800,000 to 2M+ incidents of guns being used to prevent deaths every year, then my sizeable family spread out over the country, would have experienced a few events over the past 40 years. The probability that we wouldn't have is tiny. And I also pointed out a typical small town's experience.
You are the one trying to prove statements. You have the obligation to provide reasonable evidence from unbiased sources. You haven't done it. We can conclude that you are just easily duped.
You made the claim. It's your obligation to provide some proof.
And would that be John "Mary Rosh" Lott, whose data got lost and whose research can't be duplicated, and who is suing his critics (Leavitt)? Of course it would.
The data lost was little tiny portion and rather insignificant in light of everything else it contains, which is available and holds up under scrutiny.
Quote:
They are not true facts. If in America there are 800,000 to 2M+ incidents of guns being used to prevent deaths every year, then my sizeable family spread out over the country, would have experienced a few events over the past 40 years. The probability that we wouldn't have is tiny. And I also pointed out a typical small town's experience.
Not really in a country of so many. Your experience has not been my experience.
Quote:
You are the one trying to prove statements. You have the obligation to provide reasonable evidence from unbiased sources. You haven't done it. We can conclude that you are just easily duped.
I did. Go back to my link and read all the references if you wish, it's all right there for you if you read.
Think about it. If the 2M+ number were correct, then in a population of 300M, everyone would have at least a 25% chance of a life-or-death situation from a criminal in a 40-year adult lifetime. Actually, it would be much, much higher, because the 2M+ number was for crimes foiled by a gun-owner. Many are not foiled. So, let's conservatively double the number. That means that half of every adult you know must have been in a life-or-death crime.
It's bogus on it's face, and no intelligent person would spout off that number.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
But it's NOT just the USA and it's not the fault of the gun. It's something we in America call "Per-sun-al" "ree-spon-si-bil-i-ty"
