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No it doesn't put you at a huge disadvantage. We spend more money on Defense the rest of the entire World combined. I think we will manage to survive is a handfull of radicals are not tortured by us. Let's look at some advantages of not torturing.
** Increased respect in the World
** Less sympathy for terrorists the Muslim World
** Less faulty information
** Having the moral high ground to criticize those that torture our soldiers
** Increased respect for the rule of Law since we are not breaking the law.
** Not asking those among us to torture another human being.
Abslutely correct....I agree wholheartedly. My ONLY caveat with your noble ideas is whether (as the OP asks) waterboarding is truly 'heavy duty torture'. My point is, it's not. There are HUGE gradations, and I'm sure you, or I, or ANYBODY, while not 'wanting' to be waterboarded....or slapped...or screamed at....would VASTLY prefer it over more draconian tortures (which I won't mention because I just ate)
To ME, the question of 'waterboarding' as torture, would be equivalent to a discussion over whether "violence" could be used in police work....or "should we ever be able to 'go back on our word' " during warfare. Too many gradations in each of these for a simple, black-and-white answer. "Torture", I believe, fits into a similar category. WAY too many variations to state so simply.
Once again, your above points are the 'ideal'...one I'm sure we ALL strive for.
See, its this type thing that has lost us all moral standing in the world. What surpassing arrogance gives us the idea we can unilaterally decide what is and what is not torture, rather than abide by the definition agreed upon by the civilized world (including us, back when we qualified)? It's like when we were getting ready to try the terrorist's chauffer because he was the biggest fish our multitrillion dollar net had caught. When informed that driving somebody around is not considered a war crime, the Bush administration responded, "well, we'll just make up a new one and try him for that". They were of course told that individual nations don't get to make up their own war crimes to suit their internal politics. So they tried him anyway.
Here's an interesting bit of news. A man was just released from Gitmo in November. He was held there for 6 years. He was totally innocent. He fought against the Taliban before he was turned in by some warlords.
I guess we missed our chance to "just kill the terrorist."
Here's an interesting bit of news. A man was just released from Gitmo in November. He was held there for 6 years. He was totally innocent. He fought against the Taliban before he was turned in by some warlords.
I guess we missed our chance to "just kill the terrorist."
Sucks to be him.
And not just cause he was held at Gitmo for 6 years. It probably sucked to be him before we ever showed up.
And not just cause he was held at Gitmo for 6 years. It probably sucked to be him before we ever showed up.
I don't want to fly off the handle here, but it appears that you are trying to justify our having imprisoned an innocent man without trial for 6 years, perhaps subjecting him to torture in the process.
Water is poured down the nose, making the criminal believe that he is drowning, yet he can not drown, as a matter of fact no damage is even done to his nasal passages. That being said, the fear that they are drowning compels them to sing like songbirds, in order for their captor to stop.
How is this torture? I'd like this to be a civil discussion and not devolve calling people Nazis and such; just a spirited discussion on how and why they do or don't consider water boarding torture when no harm is done.
It's not. We don't torture. We do, however, perform coercive interrogations, such as using sleep deprivation, which is entirely reasonable.
See, its this type thing that has lost us all moral standing in the world. What surpassing arrogance gives us the idea we can unilaterally decide what is and what is not torture, rather than abide by the definition agreed upon by the civilized world (including us, back when we qualified)? It's like when we were getting ready to try the terrorist's chauffer because he was the biggest fish our multitrillion dollar net had caught. When informed that driving somebody around is not considered a war crime, the Bush administration responded, "well, we'll just make up a new one and try him for that". They were of course told that individual nations don't get to make up their own war crimes to suit their internal politics. So they tried him anyway.
Can't argue with your sentiments..I concur in many ways. If it's literally true that our recent 'flirtation' with torture (even in its most benign forms) has "lost us ALL our moral standing in the world"..(has, in other words, put us on a par with Syria, or China, or Iran) then all I can say is perhaps our 'standing' never meant much in the first place.
Other than that, I can only refer you to my earlier posts. It's an ugly, nauseating, horrific business, this 'terror' thing. By its very DEFINITION it eschews the values of the 'civilized world'.
We have two choices...either don't engage the terrorists at ALL...or get into the fray at THEIR invitation, and fight, and thus become 'dirty' by association. All we can do in THAT case is to make sure we get LESS dirty than they do....and resolve ALWAYS to "stop" our actions, the moment the other guy says "enough".
I can't see any other way to fight terrorists, whose very CREED requires that they be deceitful, 'underhanded', and honor NO agreements....and seek to use 'atrocity' as an art form, to demoralize their opponents (us) by throwing things at us we just can't 'stomach'. No rules, no 'shame', nothing is too outrageous or horrifying, and EVERYBODY'S fair game..OUR women and children, THEIR women and children...ANYBODY may be 'used' to further the cause.
How you 'honorably' fight such a enemy is beyond my ability to comprehend.
Attempting to sell political favors is 100% illegal.
Blowing up airliners is 100% illegal.
Female genital mutilation is 100% illegal.
NONE of these crimes are prosecuted even 5% of the time. Maybe waterboarding will be....I don't know yet.
Totally disagree! These crimes are prosecuted if they are caught.
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