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It's astonishing how many of your right-wing confrères do. People who've had the wool pulled over their eyes more often than Old Faithful erupts each day, people who have no understanding at all of economics or public finance, but somehow, some way they are able to see to the core of the global economic crisis and know just what will and what won't work in addressing it. So-o-o-o-o-o impressive!
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Originally Posted by Rggr
I just don't think that a package of seemingly random government spending is it.
Seemingly random? Where do we come up with that one? Doesn't it seem to you that there's a pretty extreme bias toward things like tax cuts that target low- an middle-income people for a change, long-overdue (and long-promised) investments in a deteriorating infrastructure, aid to cash-strapped state governments, and investments in moving toward greater energy independence and efficiency? You think all that came about by pure chance?
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Originally Posted by Rggr
I also think the idea of simply cutting some taxes is too simplistic.
What??? Too simplistic??? Tax cuts are all the economic program that right-wingers have ever had. Economy strong? Cut taxes. Economy improving? Cut taxes. Economy steady? Cut taxes. Economy declining? Cut taxes. Economy in the tank? Cut taxes. The only tax cuts right-wingers have ever complained about were those that weren't sufficiently targeted toward mega-corporations and high-income individuals who don't really need the help to begin with. Maybe "too simplistic" is the new buzz-word for that?
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Originally Posted by Rggr
I think the government feels the need to respond immediately and thinks they have more power to "fix it" than they do.
The time to have taken action was in mid-2007 when there was still some chance of addressing the problems before they spread from Wall Street into the broader economy. Instead, we got the timidity of the Hope Now Alliance. Great. Fast forward by 18 months, and yes, with new declines, layoffs, and cutbacks being announced every day, it's become imperative to act as quickly as possible. Any other view is, in a word, stupid. No one, meanwhile, is under any misconception about some power to "fix it". That's non-existent. But is there another course beyond focusing those powers we do have in that direction? Is there an argument for doing nothing? For just giving some money to rich people? For doing some small-scale experimental stimulus program and then having a blue-ribbon panel study the results and come up with some broader recommendations? I don't think so, and not many others with any insight do either.
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Originally Posted by Rggr
If the government is going to intervene, I would like to see them take some time and do some analysis to consider what may work rather than just deciding on some areas to spend money and selling it as a necessary stimulus.
Time is presently a luxury we don't have, and the package you see wasn't developed just this past weekend. It's been in the works for months with, for instance, the expanded tax cuts that Republicans had asked for after the elections having been worked in over the Christmas holidays.
Like the editors of the Wall Street Journal, I think you're just moaning over the fact that you don't pull all the strings anymore. The people got tired of you and kicked you out. Too bad. Stop whining. Stop pretending that it didn't happen. Stop thinking that the buck still stops with you. Obama et al have extended olive branches over and over. All rejected. Partisan posturing is being put ahead of dealing with a national emergency. Amtrak runs a better railroad than that.
Last edited by saganista; 01-30-2009 at 05:31 AM..
Like the editors of the Wall Street Journal, I think you're just moaning over the fact that you don't pull all the strings anymore. The people got tired of you and kicked you out. Too bad. Stop whining.
Sounds like an modern day version of speeches offered from Comrade Commissars after they drove out those nasty fascists post-WW2, from Prague to Budapest, promising to usher in a new world where exploitation and humiliation are no longer (yeah right!), substituting one party's ideology for another's.
I wouldn't be surprised if some party hacks on C/D are foaming at the mouth like a rabid dog right now.
The republican plan that Pelosi wont let be taken to the floor
Aw, gee, that cruel and evil Nancy! Did she send the bill to mark-up when she didn't have to? Yes. Was the bill open to Republican amendment in committee? Yes. Was it open to Republican amendment on the House floor? Yes. Did they try to introduce their alternative there? Yes. What happened? It failed. Were there large piles of tax cuts added to the bill at Republican request? Yes. Were population control dollars taken out after Republicans whined about it? Yes. Was refurbishing The Mall taken out after Republicans whined about it? Yes. Are the Republicans behaving like a bunch of spoiled brats who won't play the game unless they get to make all the rules? Yes. Was their alternative half as big while still sending twice as much to mega-corporations and rich people? Yes...
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Originally Posted by Plovedupont
Immediate Tax Relief for Working Families: House Republicans propose reducing the lowest individual tax rates from 15 percent to 10 percent and from 10 percent to five percent. Under the proposal, a married couple filing jointly could save up to $3,400 a year in taxes.
What income level does that "working family" have to be making in order to realize that $3400 savings? $200K? $400K? How much is it?
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Originally Posted by Plovedupont
The alternative also ensures that no additional middle class taxpayers will fall victim to the Alternative Minimum Tax.
Um, there AREN'T any middle class taxpayers affected by the AMT. About one return in every 25 currently includes an AMT payment. Without any of the annual patches that Congress has passed, that number would have grown to about one in 7. Even that is still not middle class.
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Originally Posted by Plovedupont
Help for America’s Small Businesses: House Republicans propose to allow small businesses to take a tax deduction equal to 20 percent of their income. This will immediately encourage investment and free up funds for small businesses to hire new employees and create jobs.
At the expense of what? Small businesses received substantial tax relief in the Recovery Act of 2008 and still aren't either investing or hiring out of the funds they already have on hand. When they see no present reason to invest or hire, how does giving them more money to invest and hire with provide any actual stimulus?
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Originally Posted by Plovedupont
Assistance for the Unemployed: House Republicans propose to make unemployment benefits tax free so that those looking for work can focus on providing for their families
If you were on unemployment all year, what would your actual dollar tax savings be?
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Originally Posted by Plovedupont
Extension of Unemployment Insurance Benefits: The alternative extends through December 2009 the current temporary federal extended unemployment benefits program to help more long-term unemployed workers.
This is bipartisan...it's in the actual bill as well.
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Originally Posted by Plovedupont
Stabilizing Home Values: In order to encourage responsible buyers to enter the market and stabilize prices, House Republicans propose a home-buyers credit of $7,500 for those buyers who make a minimum down-payment of five percent.
Which segment of the population is it that can currently qualify for a mortgage loan at all, and therefore have any chance of accruing this benefit? Would that be rich people again?
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Originally Posted by Plovedupont
Expanded Net Operating Losses (NOLs): The proposal expands the NOL carryback rules, permitting businesses to carry back their NOL deductions for five years, rather than two. This would provide many previously profitable companies the opportunity to seek immediate refunds of past taxes paid, giving them cash infusions that would help them weather the current economic storm.
What is the estimated stimulus effect of expanded NOL's? Is it zero? In other words, is this just another freaking corporate give-away?
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Originally Posted by Plovedupont
There is more to the republican plan but I dont want to take up more room
Whatever more there is, it isn't enough. The Republican alternative was too small and targeted to the wrong people and the wrong places. It's not much more than another example of their not having taken our problems seriously...
Well then it sounds like democrats did everything they can. With no republican support and approval/disapproval rampant across the country. The bed is made and there is very clear ownership of this bill. They will get all the rewards if it works and all the blame if it doesn't.
Remember how we all needed to rush in to solve the problem with the last $700+ billion bailout....and it did nothing.
Whose data are you using to claim that half of the original bailout did nothing? If you were using the Fed banking data, you would not likely have made such a claim.
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Originally Posted by oz in SC
So we must AGAIN rush in and spend MORE money as it will solve the problem...What is the downside if we do NOT rush in and throw more money at the problem??
For starters, more months with hundreds of thousands of lost jobs and more quarters with 3.8% declines in GDP. Sound appetizing?
I hope people realize that the Republican's DO NOT WANT this stimulus package to work. Their only hope for political relevance is a complete and total economic collapse that no amount of stimulus will turn around before 2010. The people that run the Republican Party have enough money stashed away to weather a collapse in comfort so why not destroy the economy if it would result in a return to power.
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