Stop comparing blacks to gays (homosexuals, San Francisco, murder, broadcast)

[SemiahmooDude]

Originally Posted by kb09

You do realize what the word tone means in writing don't you? The tone in writing is how the reader perceives the way the author is talking if they were conversing face to face. So if I perceive you to be talking in a condescending way, that is tone; but anyway...

I've never asked you to apologize for anything that you've said and I've never called you a homophobe for not supporting my views. That's YOUR knee jerk perception to people who think comparing the black cause and gay cause is okay. No one (at least not me) is telling you to shut up and sit down; that's all coming from your head bud.



I semi-agree with you. They have suffered in different ways, but the root and cause of the discrimination is the same. That's why I believe it is plausible for the two to be paralleled. If one group has suffered injustices and has managed to garner some sort of equality, then I believe that the first group should support any other group that receives discrimination for inherent characteristics. Just my opinion though.



I was semi agreeing with you until the point where you said that the system is still trying to subjugate us and make us second class citizens. Stop kidding yourself bud. Racism still exist, but corporate racism has been completely done away with. If there is even a hint that a black was denied a job because of their color, the business might as well have cut off their own nose. Corporate racism doesn't fly in today's time. Societal racism and prejudice? Yes, just like homophobia, that still exist. You can't make a person stop being a racist; the change has to come from within and only that person can make the change.



No I'm not saying that blacks haven't suffered as much as Jews (whether they have or have not is completely subjective), I'm saying that if you want to do the "who's suffered the most" comparing game, then comparably over a longer period of time Jews have been discriminated and suffered longer than blacks as a whole have. If you want the same can be said of blacks to gays. My main point in bringing that up is that just because a group hasn't comparably suffered as much as the next because of the commonalities of the group, doesn't mean that their causes and suffering cannot be compared or paralleled. In the Jew-Black suffering, are their similarities? Yes. In the Black-Gay suffering, are their similarities? Yes. The main similarity that all three groups have in common is injustice. All three groups haven't been treated in a just or fair manner (whether it be corporately, socially, or politically) and that is the merit where all three groups can parallel their sufferings. Because at their grassroots all three have been discriminated upon for a characteristic that is inherently part of their being, they have suffered the same slew of injustices.



See statement above for the merit part. And again, stop speaking for (most) blacks. Blacks (comparatively as a whole) cannot accept ourselves and cannot bond together enough to stop fighting with each other. Until the factions of blacks can unite and speak as one voice, the whole "most blacks don't see it that way" or "most blacks think it's this" argument holds no water.

[the one]

i think you might be too samrt for the OP. wonder why posts like these and the one i offered dont get any play by these guys going back and forth.

interesting.

this post gets a big X's 10

Originally Posted by boiseguy

this isn't a matter of pointing out who is the bigger "victim" Its a matter of applying basic principles to all matters of human rights and equality...
Such talk in trying to make people recognize who's suffered more is useless, and does not solve the problems... Fact of the matter is.. no black person alive today has been forced to endure slavery.. it was their ancestors... no white person today has OWNED black slaves... VERY few jewish people alive today have actually suffered in the holocaust.... Such atrocities are there for us to learn from.. in recognizing injustices.. so that they never happen again. But to sit here and say.. because you are a decendant of one of these groups.. makes you more entitled to human rights is absurd...
Please don't insult our inteligence with such.....
If you have a problem with comparing human rights and equality of one group of people to your own.. and that offends you... I'm here to tell you... you're just as much a bigot....
Just because you have black skin... doesn't give you a "bigot free pass"
Fact of the matter is.. we have a black president.. NOT because black people put him in office.. but because the majority of white voters voted for him! Most (not all) of such white voters were the voters who voted against PROP 8... Yet it was the Black population who voted for obama, and slammed the door on gays on prop 8. You see, while blacks have been making their push for equality.. Whites for the most part have learned a valuable lesson on discrimination, which has changed the fabric of american society in a VERY short time. Its time that black people acknowledge such things.. and perhaps take a page out of white america's book. I'm sorry if what I have to say is politically incorrect or not what you want to hear... I just believe that credit should be given where credit is due... And I think it is insulting as a minority myself... to have another minorty member come to me and tell me my fight for equality is not important or equal to theirs.... Don't think people aren't prepared to get in your face about it!.. because YOU are in the wrong!

[lakerat]

Originally Posted by cnt

The one thing that bothers me about the gay marriage debate, and gay political issues in general, is the insistence by some to equate gay issues with the civil rights movement.

I'm not saying there aren't any parallels, but I don't think they're numerous or relevant enough to justify the knee-jerk reaction a lot of people have to invoke the civil rights movement and black people's struggles in this country the second they encounter someone who doesn't agree with a gay political issue. It's really offensive, even if it's not meant to be.

And what trips me out is how the GLBT community created a national furor over Obama picking Rick Warren to say the invocation at his inauguration because he compared gay marriage to incest and pedophilia. A lot of them were, and still are, mad at Obama for that. But they basically thumb their noses at blacks when they tell them allusions to our struggles is offensive. Why should Obama and Rick Warren be penitent, but the gay community can't even humble themselves when faced with a fellow bereaved minority?

People wonder why so many blacks voted for Prop 8...this would be why. Because blacks feel insulted by the gay community. I know some blacks don't have a problem with the comparisons, but this one does, and I know a lot of others do too. It's best to, in a political campaign, err on the side of formality and caution, especially when you're trying to get people to sympathize with your issue.

I have no dog in this fight because I am neither black nor gay but, cnt, I believe you are right on the money on this.

[cnt]

Originally Posted by luvmycat

So believing homosexuals and other ostracized groups deserve the same rights as everyone else means I fail to see the importance of blacks' struggles?

Yes, if you think the way to argue that point and achieve that goal is by making erroneous comparisons to the civil rights movement.

Calling you out on a very obviously biased attitude toward homosexuality makes me "unsympathetic" to black people? Spare ME the BS lines of crap...calling gay people a "bereaved minority" and then proceeding to cut them down at every available turn does not exactly put you in a sympathetic light yourself; I'm unsympathetic to you personally due to your expression of rather bigoted views, you are unsympathetic to all homosexuals due to ignorance.

I'm very obviously biased against the comparisons, not against "homosexuality". I don't care either way who is gay or not, really. But when people start making comparisons that are just wrong and offensive, that's when I decide to speak up.

Like I said, you're unsympathetic to blacks, the civil rights movement, and anything I've said here. You're just trying to hide behind ambiguous statements like "rather bigoted views" which you cannot substantiate, so you don't have to admit that fact. You didn't actively deny what I said in this paragraph, instead you tried to turn it around into an insult on me, yet again. If lying to both me and yourself that that's OK because I have "rather bigoted views" works for you, keep with it.

That might be your way of dealing with people, but I can assure you my friends don't have to be fake with me, nor I with them.

No, you can't assure me of that. People like you inspire fakeness. You're so dishonest with yourself, that people are afraid of telling you the truth, because they don't want to hurt your feelings. And you think you have a completely honest and open relationship.

You can't even read what's in front of you without taking it out of context. I doubt you could do any better in person.

And I'm just a bleeding heart liberal... I can see you are so set in your ways and beliefs it's fruitless to try to get through to you. Just know the world is changing...people are waking up to the fact that we have been lied to and pitted against each other intentionally for ages, ("divide and conquer") and the only way we will ever be able to rise above the corruption of the present state of things is if we can find a way to get past our differences, support each other, and work together to create change. Bias has no place in that scenario.

Yeah, you are just a bleeding heart liberal. You don't know my "ways", since I haven't advocated that people do or stop doing anything...other than making bad comparisons between the two groups.

You don't know anything about working together. You can't even bring yourself to acknowledge what I'm saying, and I've been more than fair here. I wonder if your "black friends" (all two of them) told you this was offensive, would you cut the crap? Probably not. I'd guess you probably aren't even really friends with any black people. Friendly with some you work with? Sure. Know of some? Yeah. But your callous attitude to our history and issues makes it hard for me to believe that you have any black friends.

And, you still haven't said my assumption is wrong. Probably because it's not.

[cnt]

Originally Posted by boiseguy

this isn't a matter of pointing out who is the bigger "victim" Its a matter of applying basic principles to all matters of human rights and equality...

No, when you make comparisons, that's exactly what it is. If this was about humans rights and equality, so many wouldn't have to rely on these comparisons to get their point across. More gays would say it doesn't matter if we have everything or nothing in common with blacks, we deserve equal treatment. But, they'd rather default to the empty comparisons because they think that accomplishes their goals.

Such talk in trying to make people recognize who's suffered more is useless, and does not solve the problems... Fact of the matter is.. no black person alive today has been forced to endure slavery.. it was their ancestors... no white person today has OWNED black slaves... VERY few jewish people alive today have actually suffered in the holocaust.... Such atrocities are there for us to learn from.. in recognizing injustices.. so that they never happen again. But to sit here and say.. because you are a decendant of one of these groups.. makes you more entitled to human rights is absurd...

I knew this was coming. I love that kind of double-speak: "OMG don't make comparisons! This is about human rights for everyone! This isn't a competition! Stop making this a competition!" And then they proceed to argue one side over the other.

Do you think slavery was the end of the oppression for blacks? The oppression in the better part of the last century...are people who remember that still around?

Now do you see why I think this faux-kumbaya stuff is just a front to defend the gays' habit of making offensive parallels?

Question: who has said that they are more entitled to human rights because their ancestors were oppressed? Also, I'd guess you didn't hear about Amanda Jones who voted for Obama in the election, did you? Just saying.

Please don't insult our inteligence with such.....
If you have a problem with comparing human rights and equality of one group of people to your own.. and that offends you... I'm here to tell you... you're just as much a bigot....

Oh, OK. I guess I'm a bigot, then. And as such, you then have no basis to get upset when people like Rick Warren compare gays to incestuous people and pedophiles. You have no basis to be offended when they compare the "gay rights movement" to pedophilia and beastiality. Because, it's all about human rights.

Just because you have black skin... doesn't give you a "bigot free pass"

Yet another dumb response to an assertion no one has made.

Fact of the matter is.. we have a black president.. NOT because black people put him in office.. but because the majority of white voters voted for him! Most (not all) of such white voters were the voters who voted against PROP 8... Yet it was the Black population who voted for obama, and slammed the door on gays on prop 8. You see, while blacks have been making their push for equality.. Whites for the most part have learned a valuable lesson on discrimination, which has changed the fabric of american society in a VERY short time. Its time that black people acknowledge such things.. and perhaps take a page out of white america's book. I'm sorry if what I have to say is politically incorrect or not what you want to hear... I just believe that credit should be given where credit is due... And I think it is insulting as a minority myself... to have another minorty member come to me and tell me my fight for equality is not important or equal to theirs.... Don't think people aren't prepared to get in your face about it!.. because YOU are in the wrong!

So basically, your point is: you're wrong because you're offended by comparisons that take out of context the struggles of your people, and the gays are right to do so because if we stand fifty feet away from the problem and squint, it all looks the same...

This would be why I ignored your last response. Because I knew you were just another gay apologist under the guise of a humanist. All you want to do is diminish the point by complaining over my gumption to make it.

[cnt]

Originally Posted by kb09

You do realize what the word tone means in writing don't you? The tone in writing is how the reader perceives the way the author is talking if they were conversing face to face. So if I perceive you to be talking in a condescending way, that is tone; but anyway...

I know what bias means, too. And I know that if I were saying something you agreed with, it wouldn't matter if I dotted my "I's" with hearts or I used every curse word I could think of.

I've never asked you to apologize for anything that you've said and I've never called you a homophobe for not supporting my views. That's YOUR knee jerk perception to people who think comparing the black cause and gay cause is okay. No one (at least not me) is telling you to shut up and sit down; that's all coming from your head bud.

I said what I did because you're claiming that I'm saying gays haven't suffered enough or something like that, and I haven't even gone there. I've said they haven't suffered what blacks have (and that's not a theoretical argument, that's fact) and I've said it's offensive to draw parallels just to guilt people who disagree with their motives on the defensive. THAT'S what I've said. You're saying it "seems" like something different, and I'm saying that if it seems that way, it's because you want it to, because you're biased. I was simply saying that I'm not going to dilute anything I've said because you're inferring something that isn't there.

It's actually a rhetorical ploy, whether you were intentionally using it or not. People "claim" they think you're saying something you're not as a way to assert their disagreement without actually doing so.

I semi-agree with you. They have suffered in different ways, but the root and cause of the discrimination is the same. That's why I believe it is plausible for the two to be paralleled. If one group has suffered injustices and has managed to garner some sort of equality, then I believe that the first group should support any other group that receives discrimination for inherent characteristics. Just my opinion though.

I wouldn't even agree with that, to be honest. What do you mean by "the root and cause of the discrimination is the same"?

And, even if that's true, the manifestation of the two has been nowhere the same, so I don't see how that justifies parallels.

I was semi agreeing with you until the point where you said that the system is still trying to subjugate us and make us second class citizens. Stop kidding yourself bud. Racism still exist, but corporate racism has been completely done away with. If there is even a hint that a black was denied a job because of their color, the business might as well have cut off their own nose. Corporate racism doesn't fly in today's time. Societal racism and prejudice? Yes, just like homophobia, that still exist. You can't make a person stop being a racist; the change has to come from within and only that person can make the change.

You weren't semi-agreeing. That's just false magnanimity. You think corporate racism has been completely done away with? Oh, you poor soul. Who told you that? I'd like to have a word with them.

No I'm not saying that blacks haven't suffered as much as Jews (whether they have or have not is completely subjective), I'm saying that if you want to do the "who's suffered the most" comparing game, then comparably over a longer period of time Jews have been discriminated and suffered longer than blacks as a whole have.

OK...fine. Who has suffered more: blacks or gays? Because last I checked, "jews" isn't in the title line. Now, if you'd like to make a separate thread comparing Blacks to Jews, go ahead.

If you want the same can be said of blacks to gays. My main point in bringing that up is that just because a group hasn't comparably suffered as much as the next because of the commonalities of the group, doesn't mean that their causes and suffering cannot be compared or paralleled. In the Jew-Black suffering, are their similarities? Yes. In the Black-Gay suffering, are their similarities? Yes. The main similarity that all three groups have in common is injustice. All three groups haven't been treated in a just or fair manner (whether it be corporately, socially, or politically) and that is the merit where all three groups can parallel their sufferings. Because at their grassroots all three have been discriminated upon for a characteristic that is inherently part of their being, they have suffered the same slew of injustices.

Well, I'll admit I don't know a ton about anti-semitism and I haven't taken the time to do any research on it. Then again, I've never uttered a word about comparing blacks to Jews. And even if I did do my research and I found many parallels, I STILL wouldn't make those comparisons. Why? Because I understand the insensitivity and the inappropriateness of doing that.

I'm still waiting on those black-gay similiarties. And I mean some that take into account actual details. Not this random, "both were victims of people not liking them OMG THAT'S THE SAME!" kind of stuff. That's not what I'm talking about, and the thing is, even the people who make those parallels don't believe that's just entirety of it. It's not going to convince anyone of anything to just be like, "gays and blacks have been oppressed before".

See statement above for the merit part. And again, stop speaking for (most) blacks. Blacks (comparatively as a whole) cannot accept ourselves and cannot bond together enough to stop fighting with each other. Until the factions of blacks can unite and speak as one voice, the whole "most blacks don't see it that way" or "most blacks think it's this" argument holds no water.

Sure it holds water, if we're talking about fallacious comparisons between the two. Is the only way you can make your point here by speaking in vague, ambiguous, and general terms? That's not very convincing.

You remind me of Michael Steele and Alan Keys.

[cnt]

Originally Posted by lakerat

I have no dog in this fight because I am neither black nor gay but, cnt, I believe you are right on the money on this.

Thank you.

And thanks to everyone else who has understood where I'm coming from with this thread.

[Cunard51]

Under the constitution of the United States every citizen is to be treated equally under the law and are entitled to due process under the body of law. If we are all entitled to a right to a fair trail, to vote in general elections, to be secure in our homes from unreasonable searches and the right to freedom of religion then we are also entitled to that same protection by our states and cities! If we are granted our constitutional rights without any prejudice by the body of law why then don't we expend that basic constitutionality to gays and lesbians under the Civil Rights Act of 1964? Our personal ''sex'' lives should not be used as an excuse to exclude us from our rights as citizens under the body of law. If we have sex with a member of the same sex what does that have to do with our rights as citizens under the constitutionality of law? Americans are entitled to freedom of religion, which means we have the right to chose to follow the religious principles of our choice and the right to also live a secular lifestyle free from religious principles related to religious literature. If homosexuality or adultery is a sin okay, but that doesn't give people the right to make biblical sins under the law of God criminal penalties under the body of law because the constitutionality of law has fundamentally placed apart the two institutions to ensure that neither shall infringe or deprive the rights of the other thereof!

[desertdetroiter]

Originally Posted by cnt

The one thing that bothers me about the gay marriage debate, and gay political issues in general, is the insistence by some to equate gay issues with the civil rights movement.

I'm not saying there aren't any parallels, but I don't think they're numerous or relevant enough to justify the knee-jerk reaction a lot of people have to invoke the civil rights movement and black people's struggles in this country the second they encounter someone who doesn't agree with a gay political issue. It's really offensive, even if it's not meant to be.

And what trips me out is how the GLBT community created a national furor over Obama picking Rick Warren to say the invocation at his inauguration because he compared gay marriage to incest and pedophilia. A lot of them were, and still are, mad at Obama for that. But they basically thumb their noses at blacks when they tell them allusions to our struggles is offensive. Why should Obama and Rick Warren be penitent, but the gay community can't even humble themselves when faced with a fellow bereaved minority?

People wonder why so many blacks voted for Prop 8...this would be why. Because blacks feel insulted by the gay community. I know some blacks don't have a problem with the comparisons, but this one does, and I know a lot of others do too. It's best to, in a political campaign, err on the side of formality and caution, especially when you're trying to get people to sympathize with your issue.

So what you're saying is that the Gay community should kiss our behinds if they want to gain our sympathy...or empathy in this case? Why?

Right is right and wrong is wrong. If ANYONE is being discriminated against, then i take it personally too no matter what their feelings about me or my race might be. Being a native Detroiter and an African American, i know how the Arab community in the Detroit Metro Area has historically treated black folks and i'm quite resentful about it.

However, after 9/11, i saw how they were treated and it disgusted me. I took it quite personally, and i think it's my duty as a human being to stand up against mistreatment and discrimination against ANY group.

If the Gay community needs to use the black community as an example in order to advance what i see as a civil rights issue, then fine with me. It's no skin off my back. What kind of a person would i be to want to deny them that? It's ridiculously selfish IMO. C'mon...let's get over ourselves! We got ours, so screw them? That's not very magnanimous.

[chielgirl]

No one is comparing gays to blacks.
They're comparing the fight for equal rights for blacks with the fight for equal rights for gays.
If people don't fight for their rights in this "land of freedom" they'll never get them.