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Old 02-09-2009, 11:15 PM
 
Location: Southern California Mountains
563 posts, read 1,445,943 times
Reputation: 456

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Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
You fail to see benefits because you've confined self in a small world, without understanding how the outside affects you. Expand your horizon. I won't benefit directly either, but my services are used by customers, like restaurants, who depend on customers too. And these customers happen to be those with job. Take away their job, restaurant's loses customers, their business shrinks, and they don't have as much, if at all, demand for my services. The same should apply to you.

As for your mortgages, an improved, not deteriorating, health of your business should help.
There is that "trickle-down" effect to all this, but that would take time. What if I was in serious trouble now? Every one of my clients has experienced sales that are down. Some of them will not survive this and I hate to see that.
I really only make signs by reference only and don't search out any new clients. But I understand your meaning.
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:24 PM
 
Location: New York, New York
4,906 posts, read 6,835,403 times
Reputation: 1033
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Dude, come on, I answered this already. It did not fail. Corporate taxes have never dropped, at least not for the last generation. Personal taxes dropped and helped make the early 00's recession the shortest in history.

Now - the tax REBATES that Bush did last year (I am not a fan of his) failed. And, guess what, that is what Obama is proposing with this plan.

Guys, I know this is not the business forum. But I expect the basics of knowledge about the bill before it gets debated.
What would cutting the corporate tax rate accomplish in your view. I don' think 35% on 18,333,333 and up is too high. I would like to learn more about it. Definately not one of my strong suits.
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:24 PM
 
14,993 posts, read 23,824,916 times
Reputation: 26513
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
You have it backwards. Try putting food where mouth is, instead. You're a believer in Bush policies (I know there are quite a few), something that doesn't work. Not logically, much less practically. Why else do you think the job market recovery from one of the mildest of recessions (2001) took a lot longer than average? Tax cuts helps, right? Explain how.

But let me spell out the biggest problem at hand: The economy is shrinking. Businesses won't hire to grow, if you give them money assuming they will hire. I would welcome money however, but I'm much to practical minded for that stupidity. They will continue to cut back if the economy continues to shrink, and if they are smart, they will simply pocket the money. Why will they hire, again?

No I am not a believer in Bush policies. I actually see little difference between Bush and Obama. Both big spenders.

Tax cuts and stimulus increase the money supply during times of recession. Rebates (wich half of Obama's plan consist of) do as well but they infuse money into areas that will not create wealth and simply infuse from the bottom up. Tax rebates will both be bottom up and top down. People can spend, and companies can invest.

People don't pocket the money, they spend or save. Saving isn't bad, the money supply is still there, the money supply has still been increased in the economy. The key is getting the banks to loan, people to invest, companies to produce. That's what neither the republicans or democrats have figured out how to do yet, the October TARP stimulus (which I was against) also did not help. But that's the key. Obama realizes it, he hinted at it today - loosen up credit.

But again, what I object to is the public spending and increased entitlements. Bush increased entitlements enough during his term (contrary to popular knowledge) and Obama will increase it even more. THAT'S the policy that did not work.
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,767,183 times
Reputation: 12341
Quote:
Originally Posted by DezertGirl View Post
There is that "trickle-down" effect to all this, but that would take time. What if I was in serious trouble now? Every one of my clients has experienced sales that are down. Some of them will not survive this and I hate to see that.
I really only make signs by reference only and don't search out any new clients. But I understand your meaning.
That no trickle down. It is that "spread the wealth around" thing at work here. Customers help businesses grow, not the other way around. And yes, ripple effect takes time. This is why there is no quick turn around from this economic disaster. We might see some relief in the short term, but not enough to pass a judgment either way.
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Southern California Mountains
563 posts, read 1,445,943 times
Reputation: 456
If I received a $1,000 right now, I'd throw it at a mortgage payment. I wouldn't buy consumer items. Most people will use that to pay down debt. Especially ones who are out of work. Bills first, then pleasure.
What about those who can no longer receive credit due to a badly damaged credit score from a job loss or slowdown in income? Many cars have been reposessed and homes forclosed. The buyer's credit rating is destroyed.
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:32 PM
 
14,993 posts, read 23,824,916 times
Reputation: 26513
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamexican View Post
What would cutting the corporate tax rate accomplish in your view. I don' think 35% on 18,333,333 and up is too high. I would like to learn more about it. Definately not one of my strong suits.
Yes it's 35% which is the highest rate of any western country except, I think, Japan. Sweden, lauded as a socialist heaven, has a lower corporate tax rate.

These are profit tax. An unsuccesful company, a company getting "bail outs", etc, will not see any tax benefits from this.

Two benefits:
1.) Successful and well run corporations keep more of what they earn and thus are free to invest more, hire more, increase the size of their business, return more funds to 401k's, etc.
2.) U.S. companies will be encouraged to stay in the U.S.

It's been talked about for years. Naturally, with todays climate and so many CEO scumbags making the news, it is politically not very popular. Which is unfortunete.
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:41 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,767,183 times
Reputation: 12341
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
No I am not a believer in Bush policies. I actually see little difference between Bush and Obama. Both big spenders.

Tax cuts and stimulus increase the money supply during times of recession. Rebates (wich half of Obama's plan consist of) do as well but they infuse money into areas that will not create wealth and simply infuse from the bottom up. Tax rebates will both be bottom up and top down. People can spend, and companies can invest.

People don't pocket the money, they spend or save. Saving isn't bad, the money supply is still there, the money supply has still been increased in the economy. The key is getting the banks to loan, people to invest, companies to produce. That's what neither the republicans or democrats have figured out how to do yet, the October TARP stimulus (which I was against) also did not help. But that's the key. Obama realizes it, he hinted at it today - loosen up credit.

But again, what I object to is the public spending and increased entitlements. Bush increased entitlements enough during his term (contrary to popular knowledge) and Obama will increase it even more. THAT'S the policy that did not work.
To you, spending is spending. You don't differentiate between types of spending, or what it is for. That makes me wonder, have you ever spent money on something and actually thought it was a good idea? How about the thought that sometimes it wasn't what you bargained for? Is it always one, and not the other? Or, do you give more thought about spending than just assuming it all to be bad, and with absolutely no difference at all?

From what I see, you're a believer in trickle down economics, not the infusion that happens from the broader populace. You believe in corporations running the society and dictating a nations economy. Can you tell me why corporations are actually laying off people today? Would they start hiring if they are given tax breaks? What would you bet, that they would?

And yes, I am sure TARP-2 will be handled much better than TARP-1 was... actually it won't take much from Obama/Geithner to improve upon what was done under Bush/Paulson. But, we're talking two separate issues now. Simply giving credit won't help the economy either. To grow the economy, people need jobs, and that is a part of the package. I do find it unfortunate that more than 40% of the package as it stands right now is about tax cuts. I will gladly take it, but am also aware that it would be penny wise and pound foolish to place bets on well being of my business with it. I won't be hiring, unless there is an increase in demand for the services I provide.

As for entitlements, well, it is a whole another issue, mostly irrelevant to this package. Even there, it is important to consider both sides of the issue, as opposed to being an idealogue with utter disregard for consequences.
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:46 PM
 
Location: New York, New York
4,906 posts, read 6,835,403 times
Reputation: 1033
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Yes it's 35% which is the highest rate of any western country except, I think, Japan. Sweden, lauded as a socialist heaven, has a lower corporate tax rate.

These are profit tax. An unsuccesful company, a company getting "bail outs", etc, will not see any tax benefits from this.

Two benefits:
1.) Successful and well run corporations keep more of what they earn and thus are free to invest more, hire more, increase the size of their business, return more funds to 401k's, etc.
2.) U.S. companies will be encouraged to stay in the U.S.

It's been talked about for years. Naturally, with todays climate and so many CEO scumbags making the news, it is politically not very popular. Which is unfortunete.
Both benefits sound good to me but I'm not sold because the same reasons you described. Do you know where I can find info on its historical effectiveness. I'm not sold but I always like to look at all sides. It will either help me strengthen what I believe or I might learn something. Win Win in my view.
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Old 02-10-2009, 12:05 AM
 
14,993 posts, read 23,824,916 times
Reputation: 26513
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
To you, spending is spending. You don't differentiate between types of spending, or what it is for. That makes me wonder, have you ever spent money on something and actually thought it was a good idea? How about the thought that sometimes it wasn't what you bargained for? Is it always one, and not the other? Or, do you give more thought about spending than just assuming it all to be bad, and with absolutely no difference at all?

From what I see, you're a believer in trickle down economics, not the infusion that happens from the broader populace. You believe in corporations running the society and dictating a nations economy. Can you tell me why corporations are actually laying off people today? Would they start hiring if they are given tax breaks? What would you bet, that they would?

And yes, I am sure TARP-2 will be handled much better than TARP-1 was... actually it won't take much from Obama/Geithner to improve upon what was done under Bush/Paulson. But, we're talking two separate issues now. Simply giving credit won't help the economy either. To grow the economy, people need jobs, and that is a part of the package. I do find it unfortunate that more than 40% of the package as it stands right now is about tax cuts. I will gladly take it, but am also aware that it would be penny wise and pound foolish to place bets on well being of my business with it. I won't be hiring, unless there is an increase in demand for the services I provide.

As for entitlements, well, it is a whole another issue, mostly irrelevant to this package. Even there, it is important to consider both sides of the issue, as opposed to being an idealogue with utter disregard for consequences.
no no, just the oposite on your first point. I see it as a macro-economic equation first of all, not spending in itself, but increasing the money supply during times of economic crises, then paying down on the debt and decreasing it during good times. For that I think most of us are in agreement, except for those that wish absolutely no tax rate change or direct stimulus package. Some do not want deficit spending at all.

But anyways I definetly differentiate the type of spending. That's pretty much my whole point. The issue is - the government telling us how to spend it (via government programs) vs. us deciding how to spend it ourselves (except for the rebate portion).

I like some of his spending projects - selected education programs (although I don't trust the government to spend it right) and alternative energy sources. But his program does indeed increase entitlements - food stamps, unemployment, and medicare is indeed increased. That's an ideological issue as you said, out of scope on this topic, but it is prominent in his bill.

But I just don't see the job increase here. Yes he's talking about infrastructure jobs and that's fine. But that's just temporary. And again, a government cannot create self sustaining jobs.

The only benefit of this bill, really, is that once it does pass Obama will finally stop being on the news everyday saying this is the worst economy in human history. It's like - we all know the economy is bad but, dude, you are not helping encouraging people to spend.
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Old 02-10-2009, 12:06 AM
 
2,661 posts, read 2,898,999 times
Reputation: 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Yes it's 35% which is the highest rate of any western country except, I think, Japan. Sweden, lauded as a socialist heaven, has a lower corporate tax rate.
That is not the whole story.

After tax loopholes, incentives, etc our corporate tax rate average drops to the 3rd or 4th lowest.

That was briefly mentioned in the debates as well (mccain saying it was the highest or close, obama saying effectively we're one of the lowest).

I can bring links if you like, or if you are the inquisitive type, google 'corporate tax myth'

Here's one off the top of a search:
ABC News: Most Companies in US Avoid Federal Income Taxes
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