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Once again - using Medicare as an example: Because the Government cannot manage funding, they continue to reduce the amount they will pay to physicans. As a result, more and more physicans are refusing to accept Medicare reimbursement.
If you are on Medicare, and your physican drops Medicare reimbursement, you are going to have to find another doctor.
An ever increasing problem.
BTW, which country has, by far, the largest number of medical break throughs / cures?
One of the biggest medical breakthroughs of all time was the discovery of Penicillin. .. which was discovered by Sir Alexander Flemming in England.
Canadian, John Hopps invented the first cardiac pacemaker. Hopps was trained as an electrical engineer at the University of Manitoba and joined the National Research Council in 1941
Insulin is a hormone produced in the pancreas. It was isolated in 1921-22 at the University of Toronto
Innovation exists in other countries. It only makes sense that the wealthiest and most powerful nation in the world is going to be the one that has the money to do all this funding and research.. we make more.
However, Japan is a very innovative nation.. and a lot of the technologies we have today were global collaborations with someone discovering something here and being further developed by another country's physician...or vice verswa
We, however, have the FDA to approve only those things tested inthe U.S. Where other countries have medicines and procedures not yet studied here in the US... and not yet approved...like the vaccine for type 1 diabetes in England that is currently under trials.
Long before U.S was the consumer nation it was or the most powerful nation in the world there have been advances and innovations in medicine and techniques. Simply because U.S would adopt a more universal system of having patients access healthcare does not mean that innovation will cease.
And.. if our economy continues to crumble.. as healthcare cost strangle businesses.. we may lose that top spot of "innovation" and all those innovations will go to other countries like Japan, who in gernal is currently the most innovative nation in the world.
To think that innovation will cease to exist if the U.S adopts another system is silly....progress will always be made.
Last edited by TristansMommy; 05-04-2009 at 04:31 PM..
TM; you have not addressed two very important points / issues:
A) The reduction in the number of Physicans accepting Medicare and Medicaid
B) Have you ever visits some VA's hospitals to actually see the kind of care given to our veterans?
Medicaid is trying to exist within a system that is basically screwed. Medicaid is underfunded because not enough is taken in for it (nor can taking more be justified because we don't enjoy benefits of it) it's a social program we all pay for and most will never benefit from (unlike a UHI where we would contribute and actually recieve something back), It is also a system that is riddled with the most sick of the population using it.. like if you get cancer and lose your job and lose your insurance.. as is medicare. it can't possibly work within a system that is as screwed on many levels as ours.. i know you are intelligent enough to understand that.. and know that.
As for Veterans Hospitals..I have not. I do know my grandfather was treated in them for his heart conditinos my entire life.. and he lived a long life (he had a pacemaker..etc). And you ignore where over 80% of patients recieving care were happy with the care they recieved GD.. and that information comes from a reputable industry source.
Last edited by TristansMommy; 05-04-2009 at 05:06 PM..
Medicaid is trying to exist within a system that is basically screwed. Medicaid is underfunded because not enough is taken in for it (nor can taking more be justified because we don't enjoy benefits of it), It is also a system that is riddled with the most sick of the population using it.. like if you get cancer and lose your job and lose your insurance.. as is Medicare. it can't possibly work within a system that is as screwed on many levels as ours.. i know you are intelligent enough to understand that.. and know that.
As for Veterans Hospitals..I have not. I do know my grandfather was treated in them for his heart conditinos my entire life.. and he lived a long life (he had a pacemaker..etc). And you ignore where over 80% of patients recieving care were happy with the care they recieved GD.. and that information comes from a reputable industry source.
People like you contribute to Medicare for others (something like a ponzi scheme). The point is, Medicare (the Fed Govt) dictates how much a physician, or a test, will be re-reimbursed. You, and others, who support a single payer scheme, have pointed to Medicare as an example of a 'well run" program (to off set the criticisms of gov't run program). The point is, Medicare is NOT a well run program and that, in and of itself, is a concern - if the Gov't cannot run a program like Medicare efficiently, how would they expect to run a program involving 365 million people efficiently?
Then there is the problem, yes - PROBLEM, of the government setting reimbursement rates. As I noted, some of those rates get so low, Doctors cannot afford to see Medicare patients - as a result, those on Medicare are slowly but surely losing access to some of the best physicians around for their care - hence resulting in sub standard care being given to many of our older generation.
In a Single Payer system - the government would establish re-reimbursement rates - as in Medicare (who uses private health insurance companies). One major concern expressed is that in a Single payer system, like Medicare, we could lose some of the best doctors around - because they just could not afford to take the reimbursement amounts.
Under the current system - the insurance company negotiates the reimbursement amounts with the doctors - some doctors will drop an insurance company but keeping others. In a single payer - the reimbursement will all be the same.
As for VA hospitals - a relative who lives in Sacramento had a broken bone in his foot - it took 6 months to get him scheduled with the VA for treatment - and then, the doctor did the procedure wrong. And now, he is having to go through another procedure - but this time, we got him into a private physician
Did you know that the VA often uses Doctors who are not actually licensed to practice in the State? They bring in doctors from foreign countries for "training" - and these are the doctors are veterans often see. I don't approve of this practice. Do you?
People like you contribute to Medicare for others (something like a ponzi scheme). The point is, Medicare (the Fed Govt) dictates how much a physician, or a test, will be re-reimbursed. You, and others, who support a single payer scheme, have pointed to Medicare as an example of a 'well run" program (to off set the criticisms of gov't run program). The point is, Medicare is NOT a well run program and that, in and of itself, is a concern - if the Gov't cannot run a program like Medicare efficiently, how would they expect to run a program involving 365 million people efficiently?
Then there is the problem, yes - PROBLEM, of the government setting reimbursement rates. As I noted, some of those rates get so low, Doctors cannot afford to see Medicare patients - as a result, those on Medicare are slowly but surely losing access to some of the best physicians around for their care - hence resulting in sub standard care being given to many of our older generation.
In a Single Payer system - the government would establish re-reimbursement rates - as in Medicare (who uses private health insurance companies). One major concern expressed is that in a Single payer system, like Medicare, we could lose some of the best doctors around - because they just could not afford to take the reimbursement amounts.
Under the current system - the insurance company negotiates the reimbursement amounts with the doctors - some doctors will drop an insurance company but keeping others. In a single payer - the reimbursement will all be the same.
As for VA hospitals - a relative who lives in Sacramento had a broken bone in his foot - it took 6 months to get him scheduled with the VA for treatment - and then, the doctor did the procedure wrong. And now, he is having to go through another procedure - but this time, we got him into a private physician
Did you know that the VA often uses Doctors who are not actually licensed to practice in the State? They bring in doctors from foreign countries for "training" - and these are the doctors are veterans often see. I don't approve of this practice. Do you?
GD.. as of late I have been touting other types of private and public systems..
Switzerland.. for example. .. is NOT government run, nor is it a single payer.
UK mixes the NHA paid for through taxes for coverage plus supplemental insurance you can purchase through private carriers.. btw.. at much cheaper rates than U.S insurance.
I'm well aware of the problems of medicare and medicaid. Again..when only the sickest of the population uses something and it is underfunded.. which it is.. it is giong to have problems. They have to lower compensation rates because they don't have enough funds to cover higher rates... and they can't tax us more for it because since most of the population doesnt' benefit from it it would become yet another 'welfare' tax. Same thing with VA funding.. (they do deserve the care) ..
GD.. there are horror stories for everything.. that person is in the 20% that were unsatisfied.. what about the 80% that were. I have had ****ty doctors in a private sytem as well.. including one that could have diagnosed my fathers kidney cancer long before it advanced to the incurrable stage (all he had to do was put together the common mild symptons and order a simply kidney test.. of course we didn't know this then.. but he should have!). And.. bTW. many hospitals are "teaching" hospitals. Heck.. I was at one of the best hospitals on LI and had a med studen observing and residents working on me as well as interns (with my OB supervising, of course).
Mistakes are made.. it's the frequency of occurance that is the indicator.. NOT wether a mistake was made.
GD.. I can respect the fact that changes are going to be made as you have told us.. but it's not enough. It only addresses two issues facing this nations healtchare system crisis but there are many more.
Like this anaology. Let's say you have a container with holes in it. As a result water just runs out of the pot constantly no matter how much you fill it up. You can pour water faster but it's still not going to stop the leaks. So you plug two of the holes.. it's still going to leak.. maybe a little slower and might buy you some time.. but ultimately the problem remains... you have a container that is Swiss cheese!
You need to plug in all the holes for that pot to be a working pot.
THat .. in a nutshell is how I feel about the legislation you said has been suggested..
(did you know that Asthma in a child is on that "black balled" list
Lies... I had asthma as a child and I have health insurance.
I'm not saying I have a PhD so I know everything. I'm saying you don't have to talk to me like I'm an imbecile because I'm educated. I have an IQ of 140. What's yours? The more you learn is more that you know. It won't get in there by osmosis. And what is your business? You still haven't said. Plummer? Mechanic? Real Estate?
I still don't think you know what GDP means. Do you mean GNP (which is gross national product)?
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That's just one of the many reasons that private health insurance operates at such a much larger overhead than medicaid.. Are you happy paying for those salaries and then the bonuses they recieve. Then factor in other such things as lobbying, advertising... and the the profits.
That's business. How much do you really think your TV costs? Some of that money is going to the CEO. That is the same with most other products in the US. Everything you swipe that credit card you are paying all those meanie CEOs.
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The problem is NOT neccesarily the system itself but rather the outdated teaching methods that need to be re-evaluated in a new day and age AND it also has a lot to do with what parents put into their childrens education.
Exactly... what kind of outdated medical procedures would be used in a government run program. It will be just as underfunded and outdated. Exactly my point.
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the average household income in the U.S is $56K. Average family size 4.. the average cost to cover family of 4 is around 23% of the average American income..
The average family of 4 has a head of the household who is employed and accepts the healthcare plan from his or her employer. Why don't you look up the average GDP for the US and for Europe. I think you would be very surprised. We are the most prolific country in the world! Capitalism is great!
I'm well aware of the problems of medicare and medicaid. Again..when only the sickest of the population uses something and it is underfunded.. which it is.. it is giong to have problems. They have to lower compensation rates because they don't have enough funds to cover higher rates... and they can't tax us more for it because since most of the population doesnt' benefit from it it would become yet another 'welfare' tax. :
and they can't tax us more for it because since most of the population doesnt' benefit from it it would become yet another 'welfare' tax.
Wait until the baby boomers hit 65 and retire, and see just how much of the population will fall under the Medicare umbrella. It's no more a 'welfare tax' than people without kids paying most of their tax dollar for schools.
It's not accurate to say that Medicare and Medicaid is used by only the sickest of the population. That's a myth. Not everyone over 65 is sick, hacking, chronically ill or dying of something. Many who take care of themselves are in great health at 65+. Same with Medicaid. It is not for "only the sickest of the population". It is for those who are below the set poverty level and who need any level of medical care - from minor to major. Again, illness covers all ages.
As for these programs being underfunded - you have to be kidding. There's an obvious reason why the Government doesn't have money for higher Medicare reimbursement to physicians. The Government CREATED the problem! Medicare is grossly mismanaged and the funds paid into it are being siphoned off by our honorable Congress for other projects, just as has been the case for years with Social Security. That's what we get from Government run programs. That's what we'll EVER get from Government run programs. To think otherwise is naive.
This has turned into a cyclical argument that will never be solved here. The quality of care issues aside TM still doesn't get when a company pays a "tax" for healthcare 12% (her stated number) it isn't paid by the company, it's paid by the consumer of it's goods and taken from the payroll of those employees. Healthcare costs go up, compensation goes down or stays flat and cost of finished goods to consumer goes up so the company really pays nothing we do.
Until you get that TM there's no hope...
This has turned into a cyclical argument that will never be solved here. The quality of care issues aside TM still doesn't get when a company pays a "tax" for healthcare 12% (her stated number) it isn't paid by the company, it's paid by the consumer of it's goods and taken from the payroll of those employees. Healthcare costs go up, compensation goes down or stays flat and cost of finished goods to consumer goes up so the company really pays nothing we do.
Until you get that TM there's no hope...
Thanks for bring this back to topic, and keeping it on track!
Lies... I had asthma as a child and I have health insurance.
Ah.. it is statements like that that make you look like the imbacil you are accusing me of making you look like.. CLEARLY CLEARLY you know not what you speak!
Newsflash.. yes.. if you have employer based health coverage your fine. Also.. if you live in one of the few states (NY is an example) that doesn't allow for insurance companies to deny coverage for an applicant based on a pre-existing condition.. you'll have no problems.
However.. dear.. MOST states insurance companies have what's called medical underwriting. Call up an insurance company and try to apply for private purchased insurance. You'll get a questionaire asking about your medical history. There are a number of items on the list .. including Asthma, that you will be turned down for coverage under their policies.. they don't insure someone with a condition.
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I'm not saying I have a PhD so I know everything. I'm saying you don't have to talk to me like I'm an imbecile because I'm educated. I have an IQ of 140. What's yours? The more you learn is more that you know. It won't get in there by osmosis. And what is your business? You still haven't said. Plummer? Mechanic? Real Estate?
I still don't think you know what GDP means. Do you mean GNP (which is gross national product)?
I know perfectly what GDP means.. and all the information I pointed to reference each countries % of GDP spent on healthcare.. and again.. U.S spends DOUBLE the amount of any other country on healthcare while the other countries manage to spend 1/2 of what we do and cover their entire population. We're dealing with % ..so it's a fair comparison.
Oh.. and BTW.. all those drugs that WE manufacture... THEY manage to purchase at 50% the price WE do!!
AGain.. YOU came on here with your snarky attitude from the get go attacking ME when YOU clearly do not understand WHAT you are talking about. Go read up on it THEN come back here and talk to me.. but don't dare attack me calling ME a liar when you are actually IGNORANT to the facts of the issues or even what the issues are.
And don't feel bad about not knowing. Most Americans are ignorant to it like you are.. unless and until they come up against it themselves when they actually have a problem or an issue. Doesn't mean you're stupid and I never meant to imply that.. just that you are clearly uninformed and misinformed.
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That's business. How much do you really think your TV costs? Some of that money is going to the CEO. That is the same with most other products in the US. Everything you swipe that credit card you are paying all those meanie CEOs.
No.. THAT my dear is highway robbery and blackmail. Think about it. THere is a middle man standing between YOU and the meds YOU need access to. They have put themselvs in a position where , in order to actually afford ANY treatment, you need to pay THEM first. Because if you don't have health insurance you can't otherwise afford your meds, or that cancer treatment without losing everything you have or going into bankruptcy (50% of bankruptcies in this country are the result of medical bills). And their premiums are insane.
I can live without a TV.. I can't live with my insulin! BIG difference.
Medical decisions on what should and shouldn't be done should NOT be based on someone's "profit margin".. as opposed to what is actually in the best interest of the patient. If you think it operates otherwise, then you are nieve to how this countries medical system is run.
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Exactly... what kind of outdated medical procedures would be used in a government run program. It will be just as underfunded and outdated. Exactly my point.
LOL. ah.. and here is the nievete again...
Insurance companies do not approve anything they deem to be "expiremental".. and by "experimental" I don't mean drugs that are still in clinical trials. I'm talking about new drugs and procedures or devices already APPROVED by the FDA! I know.. when I had insurance my Dr. prescribed a device that was finally FDA approved, but my insurance company deemed it "experimental" and after 8 months of fighting them.. I FINALLY got ...wait for it.. THE STATE GOVERNMENT to basically tell them (from an outside state panel) that they had to approve it!!! AND I got the device.
It would be NO DIFFERENT than the current system. ONLY decisions will not be made based on PROFIT of the insurance middle man alone.. but on the ACTUAL MEDICINE!!
ANd.. yes.. decisions should be made based on the actual affectiveness of the treatment and device. If it was proven and approved by the FDA.. then it's good to go.. and we should CONSTANTLY monitor effectiveness (the French do it and it works quite well). Simply because something was invented and is expensive does not mean that it is highly affective.
BTW.. the UK is doing just great as far as innovatino is concerned and latest technologies.. etc. If they weren't.. we wouldn't be having this discussion..
What good is the latest technologies when they are so expensive that most of the population can't afford them or have access to them.. and only those wealthiest of people can anyway.. in the end.
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The average family of 4 has a head of the household who is employed and accepts the healthcare plan from his or her employer. Why don't you look up the average GDP for the US and for Europe. I think you would be very surprised. We are the most prolific country in the world! Capitalism is great
Then you are completely ignoring the facts of unsinsured in this country
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[SIZE=2][SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]According to the Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation, the drop in employer[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]coverage was not compensated by a corresponding change in Medicaid or SCHIP[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]coverage, especially among middle-income families. The average per-employee[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]annual premium for family coverage reached $12,106, nearly twice what it was in[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]2000. As a result, many employers dropped dependents from coverage – or
Bottom line.. insurance is being dropped by employers or significantly reduced.. which, btw.. goes back to the whole quote from .. once again YOUR article.. about how the labor costs for U.S companies have increased but the actual INCOME of employees has decreased.
Also.. go to PBS and watch that Frontline video. Many on these boards say that PBS is quite a '"neutral" and fair reporting agency. What's ironic.. is that I believe atleast one CEO of the health insurance company says that under his companies guidelines he would be uninsureable if he had to purchase his own!
And.. I do not share what i do for a living onthese boards.. although at one point I was a Realtor, which is known already, but haven't been since having my son in 2006 and work solely at the busienss me and my husband share.
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Last edited by TristansMommy; 05-05-2009 at 08:10 AM..
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