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Old 02-15-2009, 03:39 PM
 
31,672 posts, read 40,881,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Keegan View Post
You say that like it's a bad thing. Why is it bad? If taking your kids out of the public school, and sending them to a better school, would destroy the public school system, then so be it. Fact of the matter is that the average PRIVATE school costs less per student than we currently pay for public school. But paying for public schools is MANDATED, meaning we have no way out of it, and most of us can't afford to pay for BOTH. So, allowing us to take our kids and our money out of public schools might actually educate our kids better AND save us money.
If private schools had to take and provide mandatory services to special education students independent of government funding watch your tuition sooaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

 
Old 02-15-2009, 03:41 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,533 posts, read 44,242,189 times
Reputation: 13497
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
They should have been "recentered".. rather what should be looked at is WHY are students now not performing where they should!! AND as I've pointed out.. it's CULTURAL .. and has MUCH to do with family home life and attitudes toward school by the children that attend school.. the work ethic of the students ETC.
If you had read the professor's article, you would have learned that two of the factors that caused the precipitous declines in student achievement over the last several decades were changing the class composition from ability grouped students to mixing those of different ability levels in the same class, and lowering the level of academic rigor.
 
Old 02-15-2009, 03:45 PM
 
31,672 posts, read 40,881,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
In Germany, at least, most students attend school until age 18 or 19 when they graduate from Gymnasium (academically rigorous high school) or vocational school.

Students are not 'zoned' to any particular school in a community, and in more populated areas they may choose the school that offers the curriculum they wish to study. Most schools are state-run, but schools run by a church also receive public funding.

High school - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
ain article: Education in Germany

The German school system is free and mandatory to age 18. After the Grundschule (Elementary School, 4 years), students are suggested to three different secondary education schools, on which they have the final say about; a forth type is accompanying an apprenticeship students have to decide on if they haven't reached the age of 18 (usually when having decided for Hauptschule or Realschule, previously):

* Hauptschule - designed for students going into a trade (e.g., carpentry, masonry, etc.) and is finished at the 9th or 10th class.
* Realschule - designed for students going into a profession and is finished at the 10th class.
* Berufsschule - designed for accompanying an apprenticeship after Haupt- or Realschule; mandatory to age 18.
* Gymnasium - designed for students going to university/college and finishes at the 12th (G8) or 13th (G9) class.


I hope this provides the readers with clarification on German schooling which is comparable to many in Europe.
 
Old 02-15-2009, 03:49 PM
 
31,672 posts, read 40,881,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
In Germany, at least, most students attend school until age 18 or 19 when they graduate from Gymnasium (academically rigorous high school) or vocational school.

Students are not 'zoned' to any particular school in a community, and in more populated areas they may choose the school that offers the curriculum they wish to study. Most schools are state-run, but schools run by a church also receive public funding.
Education in Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Parents who are looking for a suitable school for their child have a considerable choice of elementary schools in Germany today:

* State school. State schools are free of charge. A large majority of German students attend state schools in their neighbourhood. Schools in rich neighbourhoods tend to be better than schools in poor ones. Once children reach school age, many middle-class and working-class class families move away from lower-class areas.

The above is from the link.
 
Old 02-15-2009, 03:53 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
5,224 posts, read 4,983,617 times
Reputation: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
If you had read the professor's article, you would have learned that two of the factors that caused the precipitous declines in student achievement over the last several decades were changing the class composition from ability grouped students to mixing those of different ability levels in the same class, and lowering the level of academic rigor.

And where exactly in the country did this "mixing" occur. .

Again..it DEPENDS on where you go to school. Where I grew up what school you went to was determined by what neighborhood you lived in. You choose to live in a neighborhood that had the schools that met your standards. obviously poorer neighborhoods performed less efficiently..but again..that was for all the reasons I stated earlier..

My SD and that of the richer NORth Shore districts didn't learn a better or higher quality curriculum than I did.. the only difference was that more of the students performed higher and that was tied to their socioeconomic status and home life..

It depends on WHERE you live..and depends on what factors determine what kid goes where and that varies state to state... even county to county WITHIN the state.

My school had a mixed level of achievers.. and my outcome was not affected by those that performed at a lower level than I.
 
Old 02-15-2009, 03:55 PM
 
31,672 posts, read 40,881,756 times
Reputation: 14418
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
If you had read the professor's article, you would have learned that two of the factors that caused the precipitous declines in student achievement over the last several decades were changing the class composition from ability grouped students to mixing those of different ability levels in the same class, and lowering the level of academic rigor.
There are any number of studies saying what ever you want them to say. They are selectively quoted and applied depending on the end game of the organization quoting. Trying to compare aggregate student data over a long period of time without it being disaggregated across many measures is trying to compare apples and oranges with the changes in demographics that have taken place.

http://www.schoolboarddata.org/chapt...gated_data.pdf
 
Old 02-15-2009, 03:59 PM
 
31,672 posts, read 40,881,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
And where exactly in the country did this "mixing" occur. .

Again..it DEPENDS on where you go to school. Where I grew up what school you went to was determined by what neighborhood you lived in. You choose to live in a neighborhood that had the schools that met your standards. obviously poorer neighborhoods performed less efficiently..but again..that was for all the reasons I stated earlier..

My SD and that of the richer NORth Shore districts didn't learn a better or higher quality curriculum than I did.. the only difference was that more of the students performed higher and that was tied to their socioeconomic status and home life..

It depends on WHERE you live..and depends on what factors determine what kid goes where and that varies state to state... even county to county WITHIN the state.

My school had a mixed level of achievers.. and my outcome was not affected by those that performed at a lower level than I.
Here is a study you might like. As I said name the outcome and there is a study to support it. Slavin is one of the most noteworthy authorities on the topic.
Achievement Effects of Ability Grouping in Secondary Schools: A Best-Evidence Synthesis -- Slavin 60 (3): 471 -- Review of Educational Research
This article reviews research on the effects of ability grouping on the achievement of secondary students. Six randomized experiments, 9 matched experiments, and 14 correlational studies compared ability grouping to heterogeneous plans over periods of from one semester to 5 years. Overall achievement effects were found to be essentially zero at all grade levels, although there is much more evidence regarding Grades 7–9 than 10–12. Results were similar for all subjects except social studies, for which there was a trend favoring heterogeneous placement. Results were close to zero for students of all levels of prior performance. This finding contrasts with those of studies comparing the achievement of students in different tracks, which generally find positive effects of ability grouping for high achievers and negative effects for low achievers, and these contrasting findings are reconciled.


the above is from the link.
 
Old 02-15-2009, 04:04 PM
 
31,672 posts, read 40,881,756 times
Reputation: 14418
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
And where exactly in the country did this "mixing" occur. .

Again..it DEPENDS on where you go to school. Where I grew up what school you went to was determined by what neighborhood you lived in. You choose to live in a neighborhood that had the schools that met your standards. obviously poorer neighborhoods performed less efficiently..but again..that was for all the reasons I stated earlier..

My SD and that of the richer NORth Shore districts didn't learn a better or higher quality curriculum than I did.. the only difference was that more of the students performed higher and that was tied to their socioeconomic status and home life..

It depends on WHERE you live..and depends on what factors determine what kid goes where and that varies state to state... even county to county WITHIN the state.

My school had a mixed level of achievers.. and my outcome was not affected by those that performed at a lower level than I.
More expert research from the guru on ability grouping to assist you in the discussion.
Ability Grouping in Elementary Schools.
Slavin concludes that schools and teachers should use the methods proved most effective, such as within-class ability grouping in mathematics, nongraded plans in reading, and the Joplin Plan. The review recommends that schools find alternatives to the use of ability grouped class assignment, such as assigning students to self-contained classes according to general ability or performance level.


The above from the link

Anything not done right will result in something other then the desired outcome. Heterogeneous grouping done without appropriate staff development is a practice that is done many places with results that reflect it.
 
Old 02-15-2009, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
5,224 posts, read 4,983,617 times
Reputation: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Yes and no - it depends on the school a student CHOOSES. Some are focused; some aren't.


I'm not sure why he felt he couldn't choose, others do choose.



I disagree with that assessment, but even if it were true... you're espousing the mentality of, 'we can't save them all, so we won't save any.'

NO.. as a matter of fact I think those for privitization are espousing that mentality. They'd rather lock the rest out and segregate them then help them and improve the public school curriculum. Perhaps a better solution is to remove poor performing students from public schools in their neighborhoods and put them into a set aside school that gives them more focus and attention and if they improve they can join the mainstream. If they don't they'll just never graduate or flunk out.
What are you basing that on, fact or opinion?




I really don't get why you keep saying this. Private schools cost less than public schools spend per student.
CARPE DIEM: Private School Tuition: 1/3 to 1/2 Less Than Publics

Its not about the tuition... but then you have to understand tax structure for schools to understnad where Im coming from. My property taxes on LI were $7,000 a year.. but a private education would cost me more than that.. maybe less. But what about the family who is paying $3,000 in property taxes and can't make that tuition because now it costs them more to be in that private school... that is when we're talking about privitization with tuition.

Do you have any facts to back that up, or is it just your opinion?
No.. but let's not be nieve here.. For example.. can you say that BUSH peformed much better than someone else to have gotten into the college he got into? Or did he get into those schools because of his families monetary value to it? Or the students that get into a school because their wealthy parent was an alumni. It's nieve to think that when a school hits capacity and lines have to be drawn that those who have more money will be shut out over those who have less. Neppitism is alive and well in this country as well and to believe it wouldn't trickle into education in a privitized system would be nieve.
 
Old 02-15-2009, 04:40 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,533 posts, read 44,242,189 times
Reputation: 13497
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Education in Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Parents who are looking for a suitable school for their child have a considerable choice of elementary schools in Germany today:

* State school. State schools are free of charge. A large majority of German students attend state schools in their neighbourhood. Schools in rich neighbourhoods tend to be better than schools in poor ones. Once children reach school age, many middle-class and working-class class families move away from lower-class areas.

The above is from the link.
I'll add...

"Private schools in Germany are permitted to select both their pupils and teachers and are not rigidly tied to state regulations in regard to the choice of teaching material or the number of weekly lessons. In return for public funding, however, they must hold state examinations and issue reports and certificates, just as would a state-run school. As long as their students perform adequately on the state exams, the private schools are generally left alone."
EDUCATION INDICATOR: An International Perspective / Indicator 45 NCES

Also includes information on other European countries that provide public funds to private schools.
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