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Old 02-19-2009, 09:55 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,693 posts, read 44,470,964 times
Reputation: 13587

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Quote:
Originally Posted by boiseguy View Post
because many countries do not mandate EVERYONE to be in school.. and they actually kick students out for underperforming..or being a misfit...
Do you have any facts to back that up? I would guess not because the U.S. actually has proportionally fewer 17 year olds enrolled in school than the average of other TIMSS countries. Since students who drop out presumably tend to be lower achievers, that fact should have enhanced the relative rank of the U.S. (source: Global Perspectives for Local Action: Using TIMSS to Improve U.S. Mathematics and Science Education - National Research Council). It didn't.

Quote:
have students at the high school level that compete in international acedemic events.. and they are always consistently in the top performers..
What competitions?

Quote:
the issue is standardized testing..
If we have 30 percent of test takers.. that don't care.. or treat it like its a joke.. it drives our overall score down..
Are you claiming that top students don't care or treat testing like it's a joke? Hard to believe they were able to take advanced calculus and advanced physics with that kind of an attitude. Do you have actual facts to back that up?

What did the TIMSS analysis find as the cause for the U.S.'s low performance? The highest-achieving U.S. students had not taken equally advanced courses as their foreign peers (Global Perspectives, again).

Quote:
But in many other countries.. these students are kicked out or placed in "special" or secondary programs.. and they aren't included in the overall testing...
If Russia is able to compare their top 60 percent to our overall 100 percent... surely you can see the discrepencies...
Again, I will refer you to the facts...

"The goal of TIMSS was to investigate achievement in mathematics and science from a cross-cultural perspective. The international study is based on a cross-sectional sample of three age groups: (I) students from the two adjacent grades with the largest proportion of 9-year-olds, (II) students from the two adjacent grades with the largest proportion of 13-year-olds, and (III) students in the final grade of upper secondary school in the general and vocational education system."
MPI for Human Development: Educational Research (http://www.mpib-berlin.mpg.de/en/forschung/eub/Projekte/timss.htm - broken link)

It's easy to refute what you say with facts, but you claim that I don't know what I'm talking about. The reverse seems to actually be the case.

 
Old 02-19-2009, 09:59 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,693 posts, read 44,470,964 times
Reputation: 13587
Quote:
Originally Posted by boiseguy View Post
Also, It's important to note that many other nations where their 100 percent totals are weighted and they outperform the US in the studies.. like sweden and norway, have socialized systems like the united states, and by default would do better because they are relatively small countries smaller than most states... that in itself is a huge advantage on a statistical level
So, how does the fact that their schools provide a more advanced curriculum factor into that? (See my post above.)
 
Old 02-20-2009, 01:12 AM
 
Location: East Central Phoenix
8,028 posts, read 12,203,009 times
Reputation: 9803
Quote:
Originally Posted by mackinac81 View Post
Now I'm not talking about all Republicans. But ever since I got my teaching degree, I noticed that conservatives, in general have a much more hostile attitude toward public ed. than liberals. My Democrat friends have always encouraged me in my career choice, while some conservative friends act like "well...whatever floats your boat man...". One friend even tried to get me to switch careers because public schools were so "anti-God". I got the impression that you can't be a true conservative and agree with universal public education. I really believe that what I'm doing is very beneficial to society.
Some of your points are valid, and others aren't. I have a huge disdain for public education, and I'm not a Republican (although I used to be). I'm a proud Libertarian who favors less government in all aspects of our lives, and that includes education. On most issues, I am generally conservative ... but I do have some liberal views on social issues. Actually, I'm highly in favor of education ... but I despise PUBLIC education for many reasons. One huge reason is that massive amounts of tax money continues to be thrown into the system, but all we get is bigger government and poor quality for results.

As an example: in 2000, voters in Arizona passed the largest sales tax increase in state history to fund public schools. The supporters at that time claimed all that tax money would be enough to make huge improvements in the schools. Well, nearly nine years later, the schools are worse than ever, despite all the revenue they received. Approximately half of the funding in most state budgets is allocated to public education. On top of that, most of us pay property taxes (roughly 70% of mine go to schools in my district). Yet, no matter how much money is allotted to education, the liberals always cry that schools are under funded.

Now, your claim about conservatives resenting public schools for being "anti God" is pretty exaggerated. Granted, there are some right wingers and religious nuts who probably feel this way ... but I think too many people have an incorrect notion about private schools being religious oriented. While there are a good share of private institutions which focus on religious teachings, there are also a good share of them which are secular. I went to a secular private school in my grade school years, and I received a highly superior education compared to other kids in my district who attended public schools.

I am a huge advocate for privatizing the school systems as an alternative to what we have now. One of the reasons is the current system is a bloated bureaucratic barrel of pork, and a losing game for everybody involved ... especially taxpayers with no children. I am one of those who is childless by choice, and I personally resent 70% of my property being taxed for a failed system which I don't have any use for. My belief is that if you have children, you should be able (and willing) to pay for every aspect of your children's upbringing entirely on your own. Expecting taxpayers to subsidize things like education, health care, etc. for a choice somebody made is highly selfish and irresponsible.

Remember: education is not a right. For that matter, neither is procreation. Having children can be related to anything else in life: if you want it, fine ... but pay for it on your own. If you can't afford it, you are not entitled to any handouts or special favors. Education is a PRIVILEGE, which can (and should) be paid for by the people who use it. When I was a kid, my parents (who weren't wealthy by any means) paid for my private school tuition ... and I (along with my employer) paid for my college tuition. There are lots of good ways to pay for education yourself without having to burden the taxpayers.
 
Old 02-20-2009, 01:36 AM
 
Location: Boise
4,426 posts, read 5,906,567 times
Reputation: 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Do you have any facts to back that up? I would guess not because the U.S. actually has proportionally fewer 17 year olds enrolled in school than the average of other TIMSS countries. Since students who drop out presumably tend to be lower achievers, that fact should have enhanced the relative rank of the U.S. (source: Global Perspectives for Local Action: Using TIMSS to Improve U.S. Mathematics and Science Education - National Research Council). It didn't.


What competitions?


Are you claiming that top students don't care or treat testing like it's a joke? Hard to believe they were able to take advanced calculus and advanced physics with that kind of an attitude. Do you have actual facts to back that up?

What did the TIMSS analysis find as the cause for the U.S.'s low performance? The highest-achieving U.S. students had not taken equally advanced courses as their foreign peers (Global Perspectives, again).


Again, I will refer you to the facts...

"The goal of TIMSS was to investigate achievement in mathematics and science from a cross-cultural perspective. The international study is based on a cross-sectional sample of three age groups: (I) students from the two adjacent grades with the largest proportion of 9-year-olds, (II) students from the two adjacent grades with the largest proportion of 13-year-olds, and (III) students in the final grade of upper secondary school in the general and vocational education system."
MPI for Human Development: Educational Research (http://www.mpib-berlin.mpg.de/en/forschung/eub/Projekte/timss.htm - broken link)

It's easy to refute what you say with facts, but you claim that I don't know what I'm talking about. The reverse seems to actually be the case.
there are many things involved... sitting here and pulling up figures and internet related information can certainly prove anyone's point.. to a degree ..but you're missing the big picture here...
I don't understand how an american high school student does not have access to higher level courses when they have access to take university level courses? higher level courses are not mandated.. you're right.. but it doesn't mean they aren't available...
American schools have a social disconnect... kids aren't there to learn.. its a social gathering...Many other nations implement uniforms, and many other strict policies that actually do improve performance... Instead we have schools full of kids worried about what they are going to wear to class, more than they care about learning the most they can.. and it has produced mediocrity.. believe it or not.. i have parents bitching at me all day long about my expectations of students.. and I constantly hear.."he's only 16.. don't you think this a bit overboard for someone his age?" and I would love to say.. NO... but then that parent will contact my administrator.. and complain.. and then I'm pressured to accomodate and "give in"
I never once have argued that our standards should not be higher.. but again it goes back to every child in america is mandated to be in school.. so we are only as good as our weakest link.
I'm not going to sit here and go tit for tat with you... because you seem to have it all figured out...I am not arguing the fact that money vs results aren't a huge issue.. I'm saying.. its more than just the liberal government protecting thier little "baby" Because I know all too well many narrow minded conservatives automatically have that imprinted on their minds and start accusing and stop listening.. it really is frustrating...
Perhaps you should take it on though... since you have all the answers??
Have at it.... you can certainly be my guest...
all I can say is.. until you're in the classroom day in and day out, handling every single child that comes your way and the parental bagage, along with administration that really do not set you up for success in the classroom... YOU DON"T KNOW what you're talking about..

Last edited by boiseguy; 02-20-2009 at 01:49 AM..
 
Old 02-20-2009, 01:57 AM
 
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana
14,100 posts, read 28,438,048 times
Reputation: 8075
I've had a few teachers try to push their social and political views on us. One was trying to get us to protect the enviroment or we could suffer from another ice age. this was late 70s/early 80s. Another tried to convice us Carter was a great president who should have won the election and that Reagan was going to start WW3 and so we'd better practice our nuclear fall out drills. How about the former hippie teachers who hate America so much that they teach their students that our nation's founding fathers were nothing more than rich white slave owners who didn't want to pay their taxes. Some things I don't like about public school include faculty militantly opposing military recruiters setting foot on campus, given students extra credit for attending an anti-war protest or an immigrant's rights protest, no longer even allowing the singing of Christmas carols in school musical performances because it might offend non-christians, then there's the public school teachers in Maine who were harassing students whose parents were serving in the reserves and getting ready to ship out to Iraq (2003), devote a great deal of class time to MLK but almost no time to our nation's presidents and founding fathers, etc.
 
Old 02-20-2009, 04:34 AM
 
Location: NorthTexas
634 posts, read 1,555,377 times
Reputation: 327
Thumbs down What planet are you on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekTruth View Post
Public schools don't educate children - they merely hold children off the streets for 8 hours while teaching them "Tommy has 2 daddies", "feel good about yourself", "hate Christopher Columbus", "Global warming", "don't think for yourself", and other nonsense.

Seriously, a mom with just a 10th grade education could do a heck of a better job teaching her kids at home reading, writing and math - her kids would be light years ahead of most of today's public school kids.
Do you have children? Home schooled kids often have social problems, they do not know how to interact with other kids and resolve conflicts. Public school helps to teach kids these skills for life. It is not just about the three R's.

In addition, FYI being a parant and teacher can cause conflict. This is a fine line and not many people can walk it successfully. Also kids get sick of being with Mom or Dad and they need the interaction with other adults and children.

You want the Truth, SEEKTRUTH - you have it.
 
Old 02-20-2009, 05:01 AM
 
Location: NorthTexas
634 posts, read 1,555,377 times
Reputation: 327
Talking You were on the debate Team, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
So, how does the fact that their schools provide a more advanced curriculum factor into that? (See my post above.)
I noticed you really like to argue. Do you actually talk to people or just sit around looking up random "facts" on the internet so you can argue with people? Your arguments are so generalized on Public Education they are IRRELEVANT!


 
Old 02-20-2009, 05:47 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
84 posts, read 123,330 times
Reputation: 39
Succinctly, I hate public education because it is an institution of political tyranny disguised as something else, which many people are afraid to see for what it really is.
 
Old 02-20-2009, 06:09 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,693 posts, read 44,470,964 times
Reputation: 13587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native View Post
Some of your points are valid, and others aren't. I have a huge disdain for public education, and I'm not a Republican (although I used to be). I'm a proud Libertarian who favors less government in all aspects of our lives, and that includes education. On most issues, I am generally conservative ... but I do have some liberal views on social issues. Actually, I'm highly in favor of education ... but I despise PUBLIC education for many reasons. One huge reason is that massive amounts of tax money continues to be thrown into the system, but all we get is bigger government and poor quality for results.

As an example: in 2000, voters in Arizona passed the largest sales tax increase in state history to fund public schools. The supporters at that time claimed all that tax money would be enough to make huge improvements in the schools. Well, nearly nine years later, the schools are worse than ever, despite all the revenue they received. Approximately half of the funding in most state budgets is allocated to public education. On top of that, most of us pay property taxes (roughly 70% of mine go to schools in my district). Yet, no matter how much money is allotted to education, the liberals always cry that schools are under funded.

Now, your claim about conservatives resenting public schools for being "anti God" is pretty exaggerated. Granted, there are some right wingers and religious nuts who probably feel this way ... but I think too many people have an incorrect notion about private schools being religious oriented. While there are a good share of private institutions which focus on religious teachings, there are also a good share of them which are secular. I went to a secular private school in my grade school years, and I received a highly superior education compared to other kids in my district who attended public schools.

I am a huge advocate for privatizing the school systems as an alternative to what we have now. One of the reasons is the current system is a bloated bureaucratic barrel of pork, and a losing game for everybody involved ... especially taxpayers with no children. I am one of those who is childless by choice, and I personally resent 70% of my property being taxed for a failed system which I don't have any use for. My belief is that if you have children, you should be able (and willing) to pay for every aspect of your children's upbringing entirely on your own. Expecting taxpayers to subsidize things like education, health care, etc. for a choice somebody made is highly selfish and irresponsible.

Remember: education is not a right. For that matter, neither is procreation. Having children can be related to anything else in life: if you want it, fine ... but pay for it on your own. If you can't afford it, you are not entitled to any handouts or special favors. Education is a PRIVILEGE, which can (and should) be paid for by the people who use it. When I was a kid, my parents (who weren't wealthy by any means) paid for my private school tuition ... and I (along with my employer) paid for my college tuition. There are lots of good ways to pay for education yourself without having to burden the taxpayers.
I agree with a lot of what you said, except for what is in bold above. Education IS a legal right for Special Ed students, but not for anyone else. Special Ed students are the only ones with a legal right to an education. Everyone else gets whatever the public school monopoly provides, which many sources expose as inferior to that of other countries, unless parents have the extra money to pay for private school.
 
Old 02-20-2009, 06:36 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,693 posts, read 44,470,964 times
Reputation: 13587
Quote:
Originally Posted by boiseguy View Post
American schools have a social disconnect... kids aren't there to learn.. its a social gathering...Many other nations implement uniforms, and many other strict policies that actually do improve performance... Instead we have schools full of kids worried about what they are going to wear to class, more than they care about learning the most they can.. and it has produced mediocrity.. believe it or not.. i have parents bitching at me all day long about my expectations of students.. and I constantly hear.."he's only 16.. don't you think this a bit overboard for someone his age?" and I would love to say.. NO... but then that parent will contact my administrator.. and complain.. and then I'm pressured to accomodate and "give in"
I agree with you on that and will add that the situation is far worse than you describe in many public schools, including daily violent disruptions in the classrooms, but you must admit that public schools are not willing to separate the students who want to learn and are willing to work to do so from the students you and I have mentioned above. The end result, as is plain to see in the education statistics, is that the students who want to learn are dragged down. That's what those who advocate school choice are trying desperately to avoid - having some dragged down by others, as squelching potential benefits no one.

Quote:
I never once have argued that our standards should not be higher.. but again it goes back to every child in america is mandated to be in school.. so we are only as good as our weakest link.
But that's because that is how public schools educate students. Why is curriculum aimed at the lower end? Again, that's what school choice advocates are trying to avoid so that potential is not squelched.

Quote:
I'm not going to sit here and go tit for tat with you... because you seem to have it all figured out...I am not arguing the fact that money vs results aren't a huge issue.. I'm saying.. its more than just the liberal government protecting thier little "baby" Because I know all too well many narrow minded conservatives automatically have that imprinted on their minds and start accusing and stop listening.. it really is frustrating...
What's frustrating is seeing bright students waste away their potential because the teacher has to cover a lesson, again, because 2/3 of the class didn't fully understand it the first two times... or because the teacher has to deal with the 5 or 6 or so disruptive students in the class that take up most of the teacher's time.

For example, see what this teacher has to say, and what I asked in return - he/she didn't answer:

Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebelt1234 View Post
One poster stated that education is to blame. It is not the fault of the teachers or administrators that our schools are suffering. I am a teacher and I have dealt with students with severe behavior problems, parents who don't care, and students who say they want to kill their classmates. It is not the teachers fault that a student has severe behavior problems. Many of the parents of these students should have never had children in the first place. The real reason our schools are suffering and producing fewer productive workers is because or our society's moral decline. We are also placing less importance on family values and raising our kids in a traditional family. As long as dad walks out on his responsibility and mom spends all night partying then we will continue to produce less productive workers.
Serious question because some parents are fed up with this, too - where does that leave the good students who have caring involved parents? How do you suggest those students get an appropriate, non-dumbed down education when so much of your time is taken by the students with behavior problems, irresponsible parents, etc.?
Quote:
Perhaps you should take it on though... since you have all the answers??
Have at it.... you can certainly be my guest...
all I can say is.. until you're in the classroom day in and day out, handling every single child that comes your way and the parental bagage, along with administration that really do not set you up for success in the classroom... YOU DON"T KNOW what you're talking about..
I don't have all the answers, but I have a better solution than just preserving the unacceptable stats quo about which you yourself complain. And I DO know what I'm talking about. We're wasting an incredible amount of potential in our public school systems - MANY have noticed, such as Joann DiGennaro (from the Washington Post article) who collaborates with MIT trying to help students with high potential as just one example.

If public schools can solve the problem of wasting an incredible amount of potential, why haven't they done so?
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