Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
private and public do exist... but the dynamics change when parents aren't forced to pay for private school out of their pockets anymore.. and the state is giving them a voucher that pays for it...
As is now, many private school children come from families that have the resources to take their child to the school.. what happens when we have this mass exodus of students with vouchers in hand.. and no ability to get to the school of their choosing? Do we require the schools to have city wide bus services? what's fair? surely you can see other issues...
To understand.. you have to take yourself out of your own little world and put yourself in someone else's shoes to see the bigger picture... in what the challenges are of an effective education system
There is little doubt that many private schools outperform public schools.. but lets look at ALL the reasons why..... Not just the raw data of test performance....There is a mountain of subjective data that plays into their performance... NOT just because they're necessarily "better schools"...
Compare the parental involvement of private school students to public school students.. compare the strict rules and guidlines of public schools to private schools...
It goes beyond what is being taught.. but in what kind of atmosphere and how it is being taught and what kind of support network young adults have...
There isn't any reason why the public schools cannot learn from this and change... because Like I said earlier... I've had private school students transfer into my school.. and they aren't any further ahead in curriculum than we are...in some cases they are behind.. BUT.. they have proper support and ability to catch up.. and outperform others very easily at first... but it's interesting to note that some become engulfed in the social world of high school america.. eventually I see their performance and interest fall in line with what is the "norm"
This is what has to change...
Much of the cirriculum available is internationally competitive... what isn't competitive.. is our grading system..
I've had many parents argue and yell about their child recieving an F or a D.. I'm sorry to inform them that their child did F or D quality work...
Somehow though.. with administrations help and involvement.. these students are allowed to pass on from my course and graduate...
It is important to note from InfromedConcent's lovely references.. that american students don't start off behind.. they fall behind...
4th grade performance is in the top tier internationally in both math and science..
and interestingly enough.. American students fall behind as they get older
That's a very good point. Do people realize how much potential is wasted as student achievement continues to decline as students progress from grade 4 to grade 12?
Quote:
...and the social aspect of school becomes a bigger focus to them, and genuine discovering and learning attitudes fall by the wayside...
Why doesn't this same phenomenon negatively affect students in other countries? One reason is that their schools are more academically rigorous, including the vocational stream.
Quote:
I think it is middle school and high schools that are failing our kids... That is where I teach.. it saddens me.. and certainly is a wake up call for all of us...
Believe me, I see the consequences of this nearly every day. Is it catastrophic given who I work for and with? No. But it does represent A LOT of wasted potential, and the middle- and low-income are particularly hard hit. The wealthy can afford to move on and up, and do. That's why I resent the perpetuation of a socioeconomic elite class by denying school choice.
That's a very good point. Do people realize how much potential is wasted as student achievement continues to decline as students progress from grade 4 to grade 12?
Why doesn't this same phenomenon negatively affect students in other countries? One reason is that their schools are more academically rigorous, including the vocational stream.
Believe me, I see the consequences of this nearly every day. Is it catastrophic given who I work for and with? No. But it does represent A LOT of wasted potential, and the middle- and low-income are particularly hard hit. The wealthy can afford to move on and up, and do. That's why I resent the perpetuation of a socioeconomic elite class by denying school choice.
well the running start program in the public system allows PUBLIC school students to gratuate from high school with an AA degree that is transferable to any university.. That in itself give public school kids an edge.. they can essentially have a bachelors degree by the time they're 20... That is something that many private schools cannot compare to... Every student has to take placement exams at the community college or university to begin running start.. to ensure that they will succeed at that level..
Problem is.. these programs do not recieve the kind of justice they deserve.. and are not taken advantage of.. because students and parents value the "high school experience" more than the value of the education available to them....
That is why it is frustrating and offensive as an educator to have people trash on you and the system from a simple raw data perspective.. because it can be very misleading and unjust...
private and public do exist... but the dynamics change when parents aren't forced to pay for private school out of their pockets anymore.. and the state is giving them a voucher that pays for it...
As is now, many private school children come from families that have the resources to take their child to the school.. what happens when we have this mass exodus of students with vouchers in hand.. and no ability to get to the school of their choosing? Do we require the schools to have city wide bus services?
Mass exodus? You, too, don't have much faith in the public school system.
Academically successful inner-city private schools have been closing because they do not have enough students who can afford to pay tuition. That never should have been allowed to happen, because now we've lost some very valuable resources. In essence, the public school system monopoly killed their competition.
Quote:
To understand.. you have to take yourself out of your own little world and put yourself in someone else's shoes to see the bigger picture...
My world is not small. I work in the academic field with people from all over the world. I see the big picture presented by matriculated students from not only throughout the U.S., but from all over the world.
Quote:
There is little doubt that many private schools outperform public schools.. but lets look at ALL the reasons why..... Not just the raw data of test performance....There is a mountain of subjective data that plays into their performance... NOT just because they're necessarily "better schools"...
Compare the parental involvement of private school students to public school students.. compare the strict rules and guidlines of public schools to private schools...
It goes beyond what is being taught.. but in what kind of atmosphere and how it is being taught and what kind of support network young adults have...
There isn't any reason why the public schools cannot learn from this and change...
And yet they have persistently refused to do so, even when parent/community member groups have worked for DECADES to effect positive change in their public school systems.
Quote:
Much of the cirriculum available is internationally competitive...
The TIMSS study disputes that.
Quote:
I've had many parents argue and yell about their child recieving an F or a D.. I'm sorry to inform them that their child did F or D quality work...
Somehow though.. with administrations help and involvement.. these students are allowed to pass on from my course and graduate...
How likely is it that your school, or any others in which this is taking place, will change that?
Furthermore, do you really expect us to believe that there are no involved caring parents in the public schools, seriously? Think about it - those who want out because they're being driven out by a nonresponsive school system, and want the option of increased rigor, are the ones who tend to be the most involved in their children's well-being.
or course not.. I've never said there aren't parents involved in the public schools... but exactly as you've said.. to be dissatisfied means you have to be involved at some point.. and if they're taking their kids to private schools because of their dissatisfaction.. the percentage of involved parents at the private school is greatly different to the involvement of parents at the public school
I'm really getting tired of going round and round with you InformedConsent...
If this is about a debate.. I'm going to let you have the win...
Unfortunately.. I don't see this issue as a debate of wits... its personal for me...
If you firmly believe that publicly funded choice for all students in america to take into the marketplace for an education is best.. then I say..have at it...
Fix it...show us all how it's done... we're dying to see the light..I'll be the first to admit i'm wrong if it proves to be a success...
Unfortunately.. while I understand your points and concerns because they are valid... I have a hard time advocating your proposal....It may very well provide you with the raw data you want to see... but it won't prove effective for the greater society... the ends just don't justify the means.. I'm sorry
well the running start program in the public system allows PUBLIC school students to gratuate from high school with an AA degree that is transferable to any university...
Any university? Not likely. You have to be careful with that - if the credits were earned at a community college, credits aren't transferable unless the CC has a specific articulation agreement with the specific college/university a student plans on transferring the credits to. Credits for college courses taken at a high school are usually not transferable. And further complicating the issue is that many 1st and 2nd tier colleges/universities won't grant college credit for college course credits that were also used to fulfill high school graduation requirements.
I know the program you're referring to, and unless the student plans on attending a public college/university in the same state, they're unlikely to get credit for their work. That could be why many top students seem to inexplicably shy away from that program and stick to AP classes, which some colleges/universities DO accept for credit, with certain restrictions, if you earn (usually) a 5 on the AP Exam.
Quote:
Problem is.. these programs do not recieve the kind of justice they deserve.. and are not taken advantage of.. because students and parents value the "high school experience" more than the value of the education available to them....
I've explained why.
Quote:
That is why it is frustrating and offensive as an educator to have people trash on you and the system from a simple raw data perspective.. because it can be very misleading and unjust...
You really need to see this from a much larger perspective to understand the systemic problems.
The problem with the voucher proponents is that they pose and posture as champions of the underprivileged and opporessed children of America. But when you ask them simple questions such as:
1. Would a voucher cover full tuition, books, materials, and incidentals for every public school child so that there is no out-of-pocket cost to the parents?
2. Would a voucher cover the full costs of transportation to and from the new private school?
3. Would voucher recipients be entitled to public accountability re standards, school finances, etc.?
or course not.. I've never said there aren't parents involved in the public schools... but exactly as you've said.. to be dissatisfied means you have to be involved at some point.. and if they're taking their kids to private schools because of their dissatisfaction.. the percentage of involved parents at the private school is greatly different to the involvement of parents at the public school
I'm really getting tired of going round and round with you InformedConsent...
If this is about a debate.. I'm going to let you have the win...
Unfortunately.. I don't see this issue as a debate of wits... its personal for me...
If you firmly believe that publicly funded choice for all students in america to take into the marketplace for an education is best.. then I say..have at it...
Fix it...show us all how it's done... we're dying to see the light..I'll be the first to admit i'm wrong if it proves to be a success...
Unfortunately.. while I understand your points and concerns because they are valid... I have a hard time advocating your proposal....It may very well provide you with the raw data you want to see... but it won't prove effective for the greater society... the ends just don't justify the means.. I'm sorry
The problem with the voucher proponents is that they pose and posture as champions of the underprivileged and opporessed children of America. But when you ask them simple questions such as:
1. Would a voucher cover full tuition, books, materials, and incidentals for every public school child so that there is no out-of-pocket cost to the parents?
2. Would a voucher cover the full costs of transportation to and from the new private school?
3. Would voucher recipients be entitled to public accountability re standards, school finances, etc.?
a completed AA degree is transferable to any university.. a few credits here and there aren't necessarily transferable.. you're right... but here in the west many states have agreements with the community colleges and universities to accept the credits with no problems..
They don't shy away from the program because it isn't useful.. they shy away from the program because the public high school loses its funding for that student... because it is given the the college or university they are attending... The public high schools don't like to see their funding being cut.. so they choose not to promote the running start programs... which is wrong in my opinion.. transfering the funding within the public education structure.. I have no problem with...
but funneling it out to some private entity that is essentially a business is where I draw the line.. if you want that for your kids.. pay for it yourself...
by the way? what is wrong with attending an instate public university anyway?
I actually was in high school back in the 90's and I actually WAS in running start.. and It was completely transferable to the University of Washington (a Great school).. And you know what.. it was transfered to the School I went to in Australia as well... I don't understand your elitist attitude towards the public schools? that there is nothing about them that is sufficient or good enough for you.. you have nothing good to say about it.. at all.. I really makes me question some things about you and where your actual point of view stems from... because it certainly is not reflective of someone who is involved because they care and are trying to do something about it... seems very destructive and cynical to me...
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
