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Yes, but I'd hate to see a society where there was absolutely NO support system and no assistance available. I'd hate to see no education provided to kids. We'd be very uncivilized.
I'm not saying we shouldn't provide education to kids. I'm saying that the parents of the kids should pay for the education. If you can't afford to educate your kids, then don't have them. It's wrong to expect society to foot the bill for helping to raise your children.
OK, I glossed over some realities. You added them. I'm not arguing with you; essentially, you're quite correct. The bottom line, though, remains the same..we don't "do" as well as we once did, because we no longer think, feel, or "act" the way we did. In cleaning up our failures of an earlier time (racial injustice; social stratification; civil rights violations) we've also thrown out common sense and responsible behavior.
We've changed. WHY, exactly, is beside the point for now. We've changed, and it's not 'working' out as well as we thought it would.
My feeling is that one of the major reasons it's not working out is the combination of too many people and too much forced "growth."
You should read this book (I posted it on another thread somewhere). It's short enough to read in one evening. I'd be interested in your response:
I believe that if, over the next 10 years, we pour our efforts and funds into creating green technology, we will be able to pull ourselves up out of this mess. People will have purpose, society will be creating something other than desire for "more," where most feel left behind, and we can revision something other than this insane reach for economic "growth." Speth, just last year, said that this type of "growth" was doomed. As did Paul Hawkens and Amory Lovins a few years back. The fact is, capitalism's crash was inevitable. This type of capitalism, at least. But there can be a new kind of capitalism, and a new kind of society. If we were still real Americans, we'd believe in the impossible, and prove to the world that it could be done. But I'm not sure how many Americans really believe in their country any more.
I agree with most of this and will also add.....LIVE within your means. I'm getting so sick of people taking out credit they should never have gotten in the first place, default on it, and then whine when their credit score goes down..... and then they continue to receive credit they never should get. That's part of the reason we got into this mess in the first place.....no I'm not referring to the controversial lending practices..... I'm referring to the societal attitude in general of not living within your means.
Greed is a fundamental problem as well. Banks make high risk loans with high rates based on greed....and when they fail, we gotta bail em out. The auto companies continued resisting improvements so they could maximize profits, the unions demanded outrageous benefits which destroyed many companies, outsourcing..... and even worse, the PCA shipping peanut butter they knew was contaiminated in order to avoid the expense of replacing it. Maddof is another greedy piece of junk.
this "me first" and "entitlement" attitude we have has got to be slowed down, otherwise we're heading for disaster.... the system is not suistanable...
Were sitting on bubbles of air still and they will keep on popping until they are done and we have to start over. I too am sick of people buying houses they can't afford AND banks and brokers making it possible knowing what they were doing. Its greed. I'm sick of people charging up that credit card instead of stashing away some money for what they want and not even asking if they really want it. I'm sick of women having upteen children because they can't bother with birth control and then not being able to support them. Not to mention the degree of abuse and circumstances these children live in.
Not Everyone can be actively productive. Children need someone to care for them. I don't care if its mom or dad, but don't think the two income, full time kid sees parents less than daycare society is going the right way. People do get disabled. One of the earmarks of society in the most primitive is the care of those who cannot fend for themselves.
That said our system of dealing with true disability is a joke. The disabled can and want to contribute something. But if you show even the mearest hint that you could work and provide a sliver of your own support the risk is being cut off. It all works against the goal we should have. The disabled should be given support in becoming productive in whatever way works for them and to the degree they can. We are losing the resource of many people who could contribute if someone offered a chance.
I'm most tired of all the sheeple. All cultures/socities/nations/tribes have a percentage of sheeple. Its part of the dynamics of human diversity. But we are cultivating them and encouraging them. I can't but think that there isn't an agenda somewhere that has much to do with this. We're producing way too many otherwise intelligent people well conditioned to accept as told and live as expected and there is nothing good about this. The whole idea of "society is to blame" or "it was the booze not the driving" or "I didn't understand, so help me please" is all linked to this.
My best friend and I have a relationship based on trust and honesty. This has made it the best relationship of my life. This is the same relationship we need between government and people, but how do we achieve this in a world where there is nothing but agendas?
I think when the bubbles are all burst and we try to sort ourselves out of the rubble, those who can will have learned, and those who couldn't...?
And those who can offer anything, including those who need society to physically keep them, will find a real place in society too. Only with this kind of reset will we ever get there.
There are no handouts. If you are sick, YOU find a way to pay for your medical care.
Kind of cruel don't you think? Pray tell how does somebody afflicted with a life threatning illness without insurance pay for their own medical care? You sound like a selfish Libertarian. Better hope you never find yourself in such a predicament.
It will never happen, but my idea of utopia would be a culture whereby people take full responsiblity for themselves.
Government would be profoundly limited, and people would have to provide for themselves. If you have children, YOU pay for them...you pay for their education, their healthcare, their food, everything. If you are poor, YOU dig yourself out. There are no handouts. If you are sick, YOU find a way to pay for your medical care.
It would be a tough world, but it would be right. What is right in life is that people are accountable for their actions and their decisions. What is right in life is that people face the responsibilities and obligations they take on. What is right is that people face the consequences of their poor decisions.
I am so sick and tired of having to foot the bill for other people's stupidity. You have 14 kids, and half of them are retarded...I gotta pay for them. You drop out of high school...I gotta pay for your welfare. You have no job and no medical insurance...I gotta pay for your emergency surgery when you get in a car accident.
You run your bank into the ground...I gotta pay to bail you out. Your home gets torn to smithereens by a tornado...I gotta pay to put it back together again.
Well, I'm sick of paying. I'm sick of taking responsibility for people's lives when they should be taking responsibility for themselves.
I've lost my compassion for those "less fortunate" than me. They're not less fortunate, they're just selfish and lazy and stupid. And I've lost my compassion for their kids too. I've been bled dry...just as so many Americans have. There's nothing left. It sucks.
Yeah, I hear you, I don't want to bail out Wall Street either.
Problem is this though. The people and families that got ahead back in the early industrial revolution (and since to some extent) built their fortunes in a time of less regulation, then set about changing the rules to keep themselves on top. So much so that when wage earners were being gutted by high housing prices, caused by loose money, no one cared... but when those devalued assets came back to the banks... a bailout for the top was needed...
No one gave a crap when the financial loss via overpricing and over leveraging looked like it was going to be on the worker bee's backs...
The world you are talking about existed... before there were factories and jobs to go to. Before Henry Ford decided to pay enough to get people in from the farms... 95% of America did provide for itself. Over time we mostly went to working for others.
So... if you want to go homestead a piece of land, crow corn and slop hogs for a living... you can go do that.
But I think what you really mean is something more limited... especially since you use the word "pay" repeatedly... You mean you want the benefits of industrialized society, but you want people to keep their fingers out of your pie, LOL!
Not saying in can't be done. But as long as there's a "worker/employer" system, along with a legislatitive environment that ensures the top's @ss is always covered, how are you going to do it?
Now if you decide, oh, "Everyone should be equal share holders"... then you are walking down the path you say you want to avoid... essentially socialism.
OK, so you say you don't want socialism... let's come at it the other way...
Are you really ready for 100% capitalism? Hmm... you sure... If you're an elite you might mean it. But it you're not... do you really want to compete with 3rd world labor forces on a dollar for dollar basis?
After all, if all business owner's were successful in getting all legistlation off *their* backs... that's exactly what you would be up against.
So could we say in reality, what you want is for the middle class to be the protected class? Or perhaps this is what you really mean:
As always, the lynchpin problem in all politics is, "What's fair and why?"
Or as one cynic put it, "Politics is about who gets what, and why?"
Fairly reconciling everyone's interests is a tough problem. And I do believe, that though you are talking a tough line (and I feel it too at times) the reality is... like all of us... you want the gov't to protect *your* interests above all else.
But of course since we are a Republic, designed to protect the elite from the Tyranny of the Masses from day one... I suspect *your* interest (nor mine) are actually the one's being protected.
I'm not saying we shouldn't provide education to kids. I'm saying that the parents of the kids should pay for the education. If you can't afford to educate your kids, then don't have them. It's wrong to expect society to foot the bill for helping to raise your children.
All kids deserve equal chances regardless of who their parents are. Your way would have disastrous consequences.
They didn't say too much about personal responsibility, because it their day, it was TAKEN FOR GRANTED. It was simply ASSUMED, that those 'worthy' citizens who were now 'free' from oppressive government, would henceforth be "controlled" by another power..THEIR OWN CONSCIENCES, and SENSE of CIVIC DUTY; and if they did NOT, they'd suffer SOCIAL STIGMA and SHAME.
You know you folks should really take an in depth course in American history instead of relying on these mythological fantasies of what colonial America or early American life and government was like.
Back in the "good old days" of our founding fathers, they had the insight to establish libraries and national parks. Could you imagine trying to do that today..."What do you mean, taxpayer funded BOOKS and PARKS? Who gets the naming rights? How can we make money off of this?" The quote,"If government does not regulate corporations, then corporations regulate government" comes to mind. There needs to be a healthy balance between the concept of "We are all in this together and we are our brother's keeper (you know, that line from the Bible)" and being such an enabling government that so many people take advantage of the system. Not sure how we will ever get there, but we must.
That already happened with the greatest generation. They wanted to provide for their children and in turn each generation wants to do the same. The problem with that is it's left a huge number of people that can seem to function under pressure. Not to say life doesn't deal some rough hands.. it's just how you deal with them.
As long as "we the people" stays around there is always hope.
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