News, Holder: US a nation of cowards on racial matters. (regular, Brown)

[MrSykes]

Originally Posted by JMadison

Yes, any individual of any group may be just fine. But taken as aggregates, some of the fears are justified.

However, even if the were not the case, just as people have different preferences in the traits of who they choose to mate with, they may have preferences for their general associations as well. Sometimes those feelings, I believe are intrinsic and aren't really subject to any persuasion, rational or otherwise.

At the same time, forcing someone to go against their inate preferences seems to contradict individual freedom.

So I for one am skeptical of forced mixing a la bussing, Affirmative Action, etc.

But see that's just it. These "preferences" you speak of are never innate, they're taught.

[Manigault]

Originally Posted by Atilla

Answer my question smart guy.

What question?

[Motion]

I disagree with those who say Americans don't talk about race. Americans will talk about race when given the proper setting. Every daytime talk show has dealt with race. Radio talk shows deal with race,people discuss race on various internet messageboards including City Data and Youtube. So Americans do talk about race when given the proper setting or outlet.

[Shizzles]

Originally Posted by MrSykes

To be quite frank with you, sometimes it just seems that that would be the only way.

Don't need an apology, just an end to the inequality. And if there is no end, then at least an acknowledgment of the legitimacy of the continued involvement of civil rights organizations in matters of justice (i.e. promoting equality). Inasmuch as inequality keeps rearing its head, it becomes that much more difficult to "move on".



On the contrary, in those words actually lies the solution. The first step to dismantling the system of unjust privilege is to recognize its most critical structural flaw - that it is not substantial! Its continued viability as a mechanism of oppression and division rests merely on the willingness of the most impressionable among us to buy into its supposed advantages, all the while blind to its destructive and disempowering effect on them. Yes, on them! Recognizing it as a construct that not only hurts those it serves to oppress but also those who seek to be benefited by it lays the foundation for both groups to come together and collectively reject it, i.e., whites rejecting it as a legitimate source of "pride" and enhanced self-esteem at the expense of those who are not white, and blacks rejecting it as a real oppressive force, encumbering them from reaching their fullest potential as individuals.



Same can be said about blacks. Probably the most honest response I've seen from you yet.



I hear you. Same here. But see I'm naturally drawn to integration. Frankly I don't wish to be in ANY place where one race predominates (that includes all-black areas). See that's yet another instance of white privilege - whites can easily get away from all blacks if they really wanted to (you've got hundreds maybe even thousands of small towns across the country that are basically all white, and believe me I've been to some in my travels and I definitely didn't feel welcome there either), but blacks can't get away from all whites, even in the most predominately black areas of the cities. And it's not that most of us even want to. Indeed most of us prefer integration.

As far as I see it, Black America needs to psychologically come to grips with Slavery itself. Nestled deep within the psychology of much of Black America is the idea that as long as slavery "happened", no amount of Black progress will ever be enough. Ever. In essance, they're angry white settlers got the better of them centuries ago, and even if every Black person was wealthy and successful, the egotistical emabrrasment of being "enslaved" will scar the psyche forever. It's not an inequality issue, it's a revenge issue...

Only two things can logically happen with this mindset. One is enslave white people to "even the score". The other is for the AA community to turn apon itself and "let it go" on an emotional level.

I agree with Eric Holder, we do need to talk about race.

[Atilla]

Originally Posted by Manigault

What question?

I'll answer it for you. You, I believe ,in this modern era, have little or no concern in public places predominantly white. You know that generally speaking you are made to feel welcome even if you may be ignored or feel you are ignored. Why do you think I am generally not made to feel welcome in an unfamiliar situation dominated by blacks? Not that I occassion those situations because, I don't need to and I try to keep myself out of situations I don't trust.

My answer to that is that you feel yourself free to be hostile. Whites have a mandate for civility, not that they have a reason not to be civil. I think, oftentimes at least, blacks believe hostility is justified due to former transgressions of whites against them. That is fing stupid to the degree it is keeping you from the civility that should be inherent in integration. I understand that whites also have a problem in this regard, not everyone has come along. However, the white mandate for civility toward blacks has placed them on the moral high ground of civility,-at least in public situations where integration is the standard.

I am not talking about blacks here, on these posts, that demonstrate civility, or a measure of it, I am talking about the show the crack of their ass blacks that are openly hostile to the same degree that red necks are openly hostile. In any case neither are civil by any means.

The real case to be made here though is that both examples of iuncivility are basically beyond hope for their generation. So why should either one of us be defending either one? Educate yourself, get a job and conduct yourself with civility,-you will succeed and I submit to you with those qualities you have an equal chance at success.
Hang around on the street corner, peddling drugs, acting like a barbarian, or hang around inside the shi. kickin fence and throwin slurs actin like a moron, why be concerned with either. f'em both.

I'm not screamin' equality for f'in white morons why should you defend yours? As an old cajun friend used to say, hang around dumb asses, you'll be a dumb ass. Which brings me full circle back to my ealier contentions and discussions with you. In this modern era, and surely going forward, discrimination, where it exists, is not a question of color, it is a question of conduct and of civility.
Remember that guy that said something about being judged not by the color of the skin but by the content of the character?

[TriMT7]

Originally Posted by Motion

I disagree with those who say Americans don't talk about race. Americans will talk about race when given the proper setting. Every daytime talk show has dealt with race. Radio talk shows deal with race,people discuss race on various internet messageboards including City Data and Youtube. So Americans do talk about race when given the proper setting or outlet.

The problem is, there will NEVER be understanding. Just as a man cannot truly understand what it feels like to be a woman, and vice versa, any white or black or anything in between arguing what "it's like" to be the other is operating under an immense amount of assumption garnered only from pop culture, and the always unreliable anectdote. That's why we can "talk about it" as much as we want, but so long as the goal for black people remains, "we will talk aout it until you see our point of view, and we won't ever have to bother listening to yours because its YOUR burden to atone...." there will be no progress. I have never engaged in any "racial debate" where that was not the underlying assumption --- that I was there to realize the error of my ways and opinion, and that I spoke from a position of "less information" becaue I am not black.


Now, as to City-Data and Youtube, I can sy CityData is alright.... BUT, if you EVER think there is some sort of racial or ethnic harmony coming true in America, I challenge anyone to go to Youtube and watch a video that is even remotely racial in nature. Last weekend I watched a video posted by a black woman that was just celebrating her love and wedding anniversary with a white man. The absolute debase level of vitriol (surprisingly, mostly from outspoken black men who called her --- and, I would find out, any other girl who posted similar videos --- a "race traitor" who would "get hers") was just too much.

No, Youtube is a BAD IDEA, and mostly because it's all young people whose minds are easily influenced by radicalism untempered by experience.

[Manigault]

Originally Posted by Atilla

I'll answer it for you. You, I believe ,in this modern era, have little or no concern in public places predominantly white. You know that generally speaking you are made to feel welcome even if you may be ignored or feel you are ignored. Why do you think I am generally not made to feel welcome in an unfamiliar situation dominated by blacks? Not that I occassion those situations because, I don't need to and I try to keep myself out of situations I don't trust.

Actually you make a lot of assumptions. I'm not going to relate a lot of war stories here but there are many situations in which black folks are made affirmatively to feel out of place, and even some places which are physically dangerous. Myself, I go where I want.

[macmeal]

What does racism do?.. Here's what it can do. Picture the following:

A group of young 'toughs'. Mean-looking by design, angry by choice, off-putting, hostile and intimidatiing, roam a neighborhood. None are in school; they don't want to be. Many have threatened their teachers. None are married, although many are fathers. All spend their days intimidating and robbing and threatening their neighbors, monopolizing parks, and making life thoroughly miserable for their contemporaries who ARE still in school. They hate authority, hate the 'system', LOVE sex, but hate females...as is reflected in their speech and in their music.

The PRIMARY focus of their hate is 'the cops'. The cops drive by, the 'bangers' glare..the cops glare back. One thing leads to another, the cops confront them, word leads to sneer, and a 'tussle' begins. The cops win, and the 'bangers' are hauled off to the lockup for a few hours.

What does RACISM do? RACISM causes the adults in this neighborhood...those who pay taxes and own homes and vote and are VICTIMIZED by these punks; whose property is vandalized, whose OWN kids are intimidated, and whose life has been 'degraded' by these ruffians....TO TAKE THE SIDE OF THE GANGBANGERS over the COPS.

THAT'S what racism does...it says "as bad as these 'punks' are, and as much as I hate what they DO, I STILL favor them over the 'Cops'. The gangbangers are MY people..the cops are NOT"...

ANOTHER example of racism? OK, how about this...

Take the recent examples of TWO cases of capital punishment in California. The first case, on 13 December '05, was that of Stanley "Tookie" Williams. Williams, a black man, had coldly murdered four people (three of them a family of 'Buddha-heads' [Asians]), then gone on to brag about it to his friends. A thoroughly despicable individual, Williams was sentenced to death.

The Williams execution was nothing short of a three-ring circus. Outside the prison gate were DOZENS of demonstrators, TV reporters, sign-waving followers, and high-profile people, incliding Rev. Jesse Jackson, and a certain TV judge who actually broke someone's camera. Lots of shouting, lots of screaming, and several near fistfights....and WAY down at the end, was a Catholic priest, a couple of nuns, and a few parishioners, praying for the soul of Williams.

The NEXT execution was a month later...17 Jan, '06. Its object was one Clarence Ray Allen. Allen was a throughly despicable individual, too. He'd killed three people. He wasn't black, though..he was a fairly ugly looking old white man.

What happened the night of Allen's execution? Very little. No reporters, no Rev, Jackson, no demonstrators, no placards, no shouting matches, no fistfights, no TV personalities...just a Catholic priest, a couple of nuns, and some parishioners, quietly praying for Allen's soul. (If they sound familiar, they should...they show up at EVERY California execution).

What caused the DIFFERENCE in the Williams affair and the Allen one? Racism, to a large extent. The two executed murderers were of two different races. Their executions produced two VERY different public reactions. The first murderer was regarded as a 'hero' to his 'group'...while the second murderer was an 'outcast' to his 'own people'.

When THAT kind of racism stops, we'll be on the way to conquering racism in other areas, as well. When we can gravitate toward GOOD PEOPLE who 'don't look like us', and distance ourselves from BAD PEOPLE who 'DO look like us', then we'll begin to eradicate racism. But until then, we'll have a tough time 'coming together'.

This post will probably provoke outrage, too. Until posts like this STOP causing anger and outrage, we'll probably have a hard time acknowledging the roots of racism.

[TriMT7]

Originally Posted by macmeal

This post will probably provoke outrage, too. Until posts like this STOP causing anger and outrage, we'll probably have a hard time acknowledging the roots of racism.

Karmic rep points for you, since I cannot give you any more rep at this time.

[macmeal]

Originally Posted by TriMT7

Karmic rep points for you, since I cannot give you any more rep at this time.

Nor could I 'rep' you for your efforts (above)...thanks for trying, anyway..best to you.