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Id bet the belief is that Northerner's came in on a white horse with shining armor and rescued the slaves from the big, bad Southerners, then invited those said slaves to eat with them as equals.....
Hmmm lets not forget that the Grand Army of the Republic ( specifically the Army of the Potomac) rioted and refused to fight prior to second Manassas when their oficers told them they would be fighting to free the slaves. Let us not forget , also, that the Great Emancipator himself "freed" the slaves only in "States in rebellion". Northern slave owners could also "claim" runaways from the South crossing into the North as "contraband" and place them right smack dab back into bondage...which they did. Regular. The great and shining North being without sin and also having won in the end got to write history. And write it they did...at the point of a bayonet.
I, a Yankee by birth and preference, do not hate the pre civil war south and its racist culture and aristocratic governement as represented by the confererate flag.
I despise it.
the north practised pretty the same thing and had slvery first..in specific cities had rules for blacks(free)..just not as extreme...
Big supporter of the Confederacy...I believed in the limited govt. that they stood for, including states rights. Stonewall Jackson, Jeb Stuart, Nathan Bedford Forrest, Robert E Lee are all heroes to me. Very brave men. The slavery issue is a very bad arguement. So few of the south owned slaves it is ridiculous. That is just an arguement the liberals love to throw around and put in textbooks.
It is simply quid pro quo, at the least. I freely admit I don't know anything at all about your backbround. However, you seem to presume you know a lot about those of others in the South.
I don't Tex, that's the difference between us. I know a lot about the south from a variety of sources, including substantial first hand experience.
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Originally Posted by TexasReb
Evil? Put it in historical perspective, will you?
Duh. The institution of slavery is evil. Those who glorify those days glorify evil.
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Originally Posted by TexasReb
Are you now presuming to speak for black Southerners? What are your credentials to do so? The "good ol' days" have nothing to do with it. I DO know that, of all regions of the United States, it is black and white Southerners who express the most optomism on race relation
First hand converstations with dozens of southern blacks over the years. One who marched at Selma.
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Originally Posted by TexasReb
I am sure though, that you might dispute such. Again though, tell about this first hand knowledge you are privy to that the rest of us aren't. As applies to the subject at hand, let us know how it was so much better in the North than the South.
It's much better where I live than any Southern city I have lived in. The color of your skin doesn't matter to any of my neighbors.
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Originally Posted by TexasReb
We all have skeletons in our closet. You have to work out your own guilt feelings as you can. You can wallow in it and apologize for your own family if you want. OR...accept it. Personally, I do not apologize for a damn thing my ancestors ever did because I wasn't there. They were products of their time like every one else was.
The first step is to get beyond denial. You don't appear to be there.
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Originally Posted by TexasReb
As per the topic goes, can you point out ONE place in the world where things were better than they were in the South?
Identify the saints before one condemns the sinners...so to speak...
I think we can pretty much say that for blacks, virtually any place would have been better than being in the South. Or do blacks count only 3/5ths in your assessment?
Hmmm lets not forget that the Grand Army of the Republic ( specifically the Army of the Potomac) rioted and refused to fight prior to second Manassas when their oficers told them they would be fighting to free the slaves. Let us not forget , also, that the Great Emancipator himself "freed" the slaves only in "States in rebellion". Northern slave owners could also "claim" runaways from the South crossing into the North as "contraband" and place them right smack dab back into bondage...which they did. Regular. The great and shining North being without sin and also having won in the end got to write history. And write it they did...at the point of a bayonet.
The lesson for the South is "Don't pick fights you can win, and live by the sword, die by the sword" The North was noticably leneient with the South, both during the war and during reconstruction. A credible case can be made that they were too lenient.
It's not a real positive symbol. It's not a highly respected image. Most people know that it's somewhat controversial and potentially offensive. Yet they choose to display it. Why? Why would a person choose to do something that s/he KNOWS could hurt other people? Because they really want to protect an individual right? And that's more important than basic courtesy or genuine concern for others?
The lesson for the South is "Don't pick fights you can win, and live by the sword, die by the sword" The North was noticably leneient with the South, both during the war and during reconstruction. A credible case can be made that they were too lenient.
LMAO...There were a lot of innocent people that experienced Northern "leniancy" at the hands of WT Sherman that would disagree. Is this a statement supporting the brutalization of a nations OWN people at the hands of a central government? I'm assuming that the "picking a fight you CAN win line is a typo? At any rate history is written by the winners of conflicts. But true history isn't always found in textbooks. I'll continue to fly my Confederate banners whenever I choose to do so for whatever reasons I deem fit. Doesn't mean that I won't fight under the Stars and Stripes but I have a soft spot for the Lost Cause to. If we had lost the Revolution would you feel as equally contemptuous of Ol' Glory and as supportive of Britain as a soveriegn? Or, would you maybe harbor some sympathy for that hypothetical "Lost Cause". History can be a hard mistress to placate. Maybe one day the Union will be able take it that extra step that you seem so anxious to see. In time you may find that having is often not nearly so pleasant a thing as wanting.
It's not a real positive symbol. It's not a highly respected image. Most people know that it's somewhat controversial and potentially offensive. Yet they choose to display it. Why? Why would a person choose to do something that s/he KNOWS could hurt other people? Because they really want to protect an individual right? And that's more important than basic courtesy or genuine concern for others?
There are a LOT of other symbols that people display that other people find offensive. Wheres the controversey with them? Wheres the concern for others? I , personally, find the peace sign extemely offensive. When my mother, my sister and I picked my Father up at the airport after his last tour in Viet Nam a group of hippies started screaming insults and spitting at him on the way to the car. That stupid symbol was emlazoned all over those filthy rodents. Today I see that thing all over the place still and NOBODY gives it a second thought. There was a fair amount of bile and hatred and wrong commited under that sign. I experienced it first hand. So, do I have the right to tell someone they can't display it? Because I personally find it a sick symbol of a time better forgotten and of a sick depraved subculture that spewed hate and violence and TREASON. Real treason. Cowardly craven, filthy and worthy of nothing but contempt! Yet it lives on and is condoned and made to look like it's "cool". So, if I offend one of those people that find the peace sign a fitting symbol of their views by flying my Confederate flags, oh well. I'm bleeding. At least I'm not trying to tell them that they can't display it. Time to go run up my First National and my Gadsden.
symbol of the advocation of violent overthrow of the united states?
but for me it will always be the symbol of the biggest blunder ever made by the south.
I don't Tex, that's the difference between us. I know a lot about the south from a variety of sources, including substantial first hand experience.
Actually, the biggest difference is that you presume to know what motivates others. It is fine you know a lot about the South from these "sources" of yours, and that you claim to have some first-hand experience of some nature. However, countless others have the same experiences and you are seriously deluded if you feel morally superior because they don't happen to share your own outlook and opinions.
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Duh. The institution of slavery is evil. Those who glorify those days glorify evil.
Who amongst us is defending or glorifying slavery? Duh. Apparently, the only way you can make your case is to suggest those who don't take the same view of the War or the Confederate Flag as you do must be glorifying slavery. Not that I am surprised, however, if you can't make a case any other way.
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First hand converstations with dozens of southern blacks over the years. One who marched at Selma.
.
And you suppose you are the only person who ever had a conversation with a black person involved in the Civil Rights movement? LOL Still, this hardly gives anyone credentials to speak on how black people feel about this or that issue. Sounds kinda condecending and paternal, in fact, to presume that all feel the same way (regardless of what the issue is).
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It's much better where I live than any Southern city I have lived in. The color of your skin doesn't matter to any of my neighbors.
Anybody can say something as this and it may or may not be true. Where do you live? Anyway, I do know that according to polls I have seen in the past, it is black and white Southerners who express the most optomism on race-relations. And Dr. King once said send a white Southerner to Chicago if you want to teach him how to "hate." And that the South today is the least segregated of all regions of the country.
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The first step is to get beyond denial. You don't appear to be there.
I get beyond denial when there is something to be in denial about.
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I think we can pretty much say that for blacks, virtually any place would have been better than being in the South. Or do blacks count only 3/5ths in your assessment?
HAHAHA Ah yes, the old lame, broken record 3/5th thing. (by the way, bub, I'll match my personal relationships with black people and my contributions to decent race relations with yours any day of the week. I just don't go around tooting my own horn). Regardless, I asked where, specifically, and on a comparable scale? Was it in the Northeast? The Midwest? The West? In Africa? Where? Not saying anything was great anywhere (just like for a lot of groups...and I wouldn't even bring it up if it weren't your characterization of the South as being some horrid netherworld, as compared to elsewhere). Just to identify the saints before you self-righteously condemn the sinners
Last edited by TexasReb; 10-29-2008 at 10:01 AM..
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I just don't go around tooting my own horn). Regardless, I asked where, specifically, and on a comparable scale? Was it in the Northeast? The Midwest? The West? In Africa? Where? Not saying anything was great anywhere (just like for a lot of groups...and I wouldn't even bring it up if it weren't your characterization of the South as being some horrid netherworld, as compared to elsewhere). Just to identify the saints before you self-righteously condemn the sinners