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Old 12-23-2008, 12:05 PM
 
10,238 posts, read 19,559,955 times
Reputation: 5943

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
And your continued insistence on alliegeance to a symbol of treason demonstrates that patriotism clearly.
So you are now reduced to questioning the patriotism of those who disagree with you? Can't say I am surprised....

Not that I need justify anything to you...but my primary allegiance is to the Constitution of the United States of America. I mentioned earlier I am a long time member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. And our own "constitution" begins with the the preamble of:

In the name of a reunited country, the Sons of Confederate Veterans declare the following purposes:

An unquestioned allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, largely written and expounded by Southern men, the very Magna Carta of our liberties;"


Note the commitment to "reunited country," and "Constitution of the United States." And the words "allegiance" and "unquestioned." Such should only be surprising or new to those totally unfamiliar with history and the ideals of the Founding Fathers.

When Gen. Lee surrendered, as did the other Southern generals commanding armies, their final words were almost always on some theme of that the issue was settled. We have fought the hard fight, but it is over and we have to accept it. Now, go home and become good citizens.

Most did exactly that. Southern men and women, since the WBTS have always been disproportionately represented in our nations armed forces. The South has always been, and still is, the most traditionally patriotic and "American Flag waving" part of the country.

Now then -- with the so-called "treason" aspect addressed -- not even knowing me (or others who take a different side) what are your credentials for such a libelous accusation?

Wanna step up to the plate and trade over who has done what for our country?

 
Old 12-23-2008, 12:05 PM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,808,044 times
Reputation: 14345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
i like the people very much but not what the flag represents to me. it is the biggest single mistake the south ever made. i like to learn from my mistakes and move on. the confederate flag reminds me not to walk into bars and punch 6 ft 4 men in the nose --a terrible lesson. the french all too often carry their defeats & sufferings as proud badges of honor. better to remember our success than our failure no?
Yes, please ignore the failures. Ignore what you learn from failure. Live in la-la land where your history is incomplete and incoherent, but everything you or your country did was a complete success.
 
Old 12-23-2008, 12:14 PM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,808,044 times
Reputation: 14345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
In your opinion.

The stars and bars is the very symbol of treason. A symbol that some see as "expressive" of their individuality or something.

So, go ahead. Wear it. And think about how fortunate you are to live in a free country that allows such experession. After all, there's no law against bad taste or confused alliegance.
The treason thing really is just your opinion. As TexasReb has shown, the legal experts of the day, people a heck of a lot closer to the Constitution than we are today, they didn't agree with you. Lincoln didn't even think it was treason, he just was 100% sure that if the Union began splintering off, that it would continue until it was a collection of mini-countries with no cohesion and numerous feuds. But hey, maybe Lincoln had bad taste or confused allegiances, since he doesn't agree with you, either.
 
Old 12-23-2008, 12:20 PM
 
10,238 posts, read 19,559,955 times
Reputation: 5943
Got some errands to run, so gotta sign off for the moment...but just a couple of comments...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
In your opinion.

The stars and bars is the very symbol of treason. A symbol that some see as "expressive" of their individuality or something.
Apparently -- going by historical records -- it wasn't only my opinion, was it?

Also, obviously, you don't even know the difference between the "Stars and Bars" and the "Confederate Battle Flag"

Quote:
So, go ahead. Wear it.
You Damn right I will...and proudly so.

Quote:
And think about how fortunate you are to live in a free country that allows such experession. After all, there's no law against bad taste or confused alliegance.
And no law against historical ignorance nor hatred for the South, either.

As it is, I thank God every day I live in a free country. Largely made possible by Southern men who wrote the DOI and the Constitution itself. And later, Southern men and women who kept it free. Who also, unforgivable as it might be in this PC world we live in, are also proud of their/our Southern heritage.

Perhaps one day you will be able to get out of your own cloistered vision of the world....and understand this...
 
Old 12-23-2008, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,767,183 times
Reputation: 12341
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
1. I'm not a Southerner. I was born in Massachusetts.

2. My ancestors did not come to this country until the 20th century, no one in my family fought in the Civil War.

3. My personal heritage has nothing to do with my defense of some of the people who choose to display the Confederate flag. Instead of jumping to negative conclusions about their motivations, I engage people in discourse and often discover very reasonable, patriotic, non-racist reasons for recognizing and honoring a part of AMERICAN history, not just from the winning AMERICAN point of view, but from the losing AMERICAN point of view.
I consider that a non-answer. The question was: which would you pick, and why?

Direct response expected.
 
Old 12-23-2008, 12:41 PM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,808,044 times
Reputation: 14345
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
I consider that a non-answer. The question was: which would you pick, and why?

Direct response expected.
Why? How does my choice further the discussion?

You got as personal response as you're going to get. I'm not going to open the door to personal attacks when this is an intellectual argument about the symbolism and historical significance of a banner flown during one of the most definitive periods in American history.

If you can't provide a compelling reason for your question, then you're just out of luck.
 
Old 12-23-2008, 05:42 PM
 
10,238 posts, read 19,559,955 times
Reputation: 5943
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
If you were given the choice to pick one flag that represents you, which would be it? Why?
I know you didn't address this question to me...but mind if I answer?

First of all, the question, the choices, are invidious. Loaded. And devoid of any understanding of emotion and history. And why should I have "to pick" what best represents? It is like being required to pick which one of my children "best represents." me. Or which of my very best friends are truly the best.

The answer is? I Love all of them equally. I may embrace and love them for different reasons, but that doesn't negate the love itself...

I love the Texas Flag because it is of my native state. I love the Confederate Flag (all of the many ones) because it represents my Southern heritage and the fighting spirits of my ancestors. And I love the Stars and Stripes because I am proud to be an American.

Why do you assume (presume) one cannot revere all of them?

Still, I think I see what you are really asking...so will try to answer it directly...and expect the same in return..

When it comes down to brass tacks? God forbid it ever does, but IF it ever does...?

Then my very first loyalty is to my native state (Texas) and region (the South). Why should such a sentiment be translated into being disloyal to the larger United States?

Think on it a bit, will you? When the Southern states seceded -- sure there were hotheads, on both sides -- most only wanted nothing more than to be left alone. This was an issue Southern people prayed over and struggled with. Men like Robert E. Lee eventually chose their side because they felt, not only was it wrong to go against the principle of "government derives it powers from the consent of the governed"...but that they could not shoot and kill their own family and kin.

Neither could I. Could you? There was no more adamant a Southern man than Texas governor Sam Houston in resisting secession. But even he, in the end, accepted the result, saying "There comes a time a man's section is his county. I stand with mine..."

Bottom line is, it is sooo very easy to think of the United States today as just one single bland amorphous entity. But it isn't. In reality...as our Founding Fathers intended...it is made up of individual soveriengn states. The name "United States" -- in that day and age of the "Civil War" -- was merely that which northern states kept by default.

So why would I feel a greater loyalty to Iowa, New York, Ohio, Massachusetts, etc, than I would to Texas...just because historical circumstance allowed them to keep the title?

I don't know about you...but the land I was born on, the people I am part of, the customs and traditions I share in....mean more to me than any abstraction, can ever be. And that is where I would have taken my stand then. And would do so today.

Last edited by TexasReb; 12-23-2008 at 06:51 PM..
 
Old 01-25-2009, 10:19 AM
 
3 posts, read 4,458 times
Reputation: 15
Default reality

[SIZE=3]WOW! I’m truly amazed when I read these posts. Amazed at the power of the media! If you dig into the history books, you will discover some interesting facts:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Lincoln did not sign the emmacipation proclamation until 3 ½ years into a 4 year war. It only freed slaves in the South. Not the North. It was to get more inlistees to go die in an unfair and unjust war against the South. Lincoln was against signing it. He considered blacks animals, without souls. Less then 1 out of 100 folks from the south owned slaves. The war was about economics. Not Slavery. To the winners went the right to write history. Southerers are polite and courteous. Too much so to invade and massacure Northern civilians. Not the case of the North who invades and killed masses of innocent Southerners, burning their crops and homes. Another fact overlooked is that there were as many indentured slaves, who worked for the slave owners for contract of endenturment for a set period of time. The shocking truth is that these endentured slaves were mostly white![/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]I would challenge you to check your facts and reconsider. We’ve all been sold a “bill of goods”. The greater question is why. The social engineers are manipulating the fact. The whites have a collective sympathy for blacks. The blacks have been engrossed in pity. And both for too long. Let’s get the facts straight, and work together for the good of all of us.[/SIZE]
 
Old 01-25-2009, 10:48 AM
 
Location: New Mexico
8,396 posts, read 9,426,996 times
Reputation: 4070
Angry What's wrong with the Confederate Flag?

I'll tell you what's wrong with it. Obama refuses to fly it from the flagpole at the White House. That's racist!

 
Old 01-25-2009, 11:07 AM
 
35,016 posts, read 39,090,038 times
Reputation: 6195
Quote:
Originally Posted by southern dude View Post
[SIZE=3]I would challenge you to check your facts and reconsider. We’ve all been sold a “bill of goods”. The greater question is why. The social engineers are manipulating the fact. The whites have a collective sympathy for blacks. The blacks have been engrossed in pity. And both for too long. Let’s get the facts straight, and work together for the good of all of us.[/SIZE]
Maybe we could elect a black president someday!
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