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Old 02-26-2009, 09:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefly View Post
^^
Precisely. Europeans - no matter what was happening 300 years ago - now understand that there is a greater good in sharing their own wealth to better the commons (be they intellectual or physical or spiritual).

The oppressive religious culture has left Europe and taken root in the U.S.

One can't argue that, despite their many flaws and their history, have reached a point where overall quality of life has surpassed our own.
Tell that to the people having to abide by new Sharia laws they are passing over there....
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Old 02-26-2009, 09:54 AM
 
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You can't really use "growing faster" as a mark of success. Of course a young, new nation grew faster than a series of nations thousands of years old.

Today, the Southwest grows much faster than the Northeast because, well, where else is Boston going to grow? It's a mature economy.

We can't compete with China for growth, nor should we. It would be like a 20 year old competing with an adolescent for inches grown. We're past that phase in our life and Europe had passed it before we really began growing.

As for Sharia laws, like I said, there are many flaws. They're grappling with the influx of a new religious population, but we're grappling with an extraordinarily powerful conservative Christian population working tirelessly to control our government under their Christian law and rewrite history as if we were founded as a Christian nation.

So, a tit for a tat. It's all rooted in the same consciousness.
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Old 02-26-2009, 10:03 AM
 
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Quote:
As for Sharia laws, like I said, there are many flaws. They're grappling with the influx of a new religious population, but we're grappling with an extraordinarily powerful conservative Christian population working tirelessly to control our government under their Christian law and rewrite history as if we were founded as a Christian nation.
That's a myth of course. Yeah there are some who want Christian values to be the only ones. But it's very clear. It's also very clear what religion the people followed who first set off on the pilgrimage. The reason this quote was started because the founding fathers realized the importance of having the ability to practice any religion or none at all. They figured all this out after watching a new nation struggle with the same problems the old nation had.

Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
As far as growing faster... It's not because we where young but because our ideas were better and rewarded for being better not hampered by spreading that idea around but first taking a big piece of the pie for itself (government). We are definitely moving away from that type of system now thanks to those nostalgic of a Utopian society which is unachievable and pure folly with a species that prides itself on individuality....
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Old 02-26-2009, 10:11 AM
 
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1. It's not a myth. Most of the founding fathers were Deists, obviously, and fought to ensure precisely what you said. That had nothing to do with Christianity.

"Christianity neither is nor ever was a part of the common law." - Thomas Jefferson

To the larger point, I don't agree with Islamic Laws or any religious laws infiltrating a government, but I do agree that all should be free to explore their own spiritual path.

2. We grew so fast because industrialism was in full swing. It had everything to do with the natural progression of a developed society. Europe went through it before us, then us, now Asia is going through it. It's not just creativity and "can do" spirit. It's a natural progression that has nothing to do with government. China's going through their industrial revolution and unprecedented growth under Communism! You're attributing blame in the wrong direction and seeking to relive the glory days of our adolescence.

We live on a finite planet. We can't just grow for the sake of growth. That's what a cancer cell does. Much like Europe did before us, it's now time for us to turn our attention to improving our quality of life and not just expanding. Like a fully grown adult, we have the infrastructure we need. Now we just need to turn our growth more inward like any adult does.
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Old 02-26-2009, 10:30 AM
 
Location: The ends DO NOT justify the means!!!
4,783 posts, read 3,723,002 times
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As a libertarian, I cringe at the notion of conservatism being associated with religion. While, depending on the source, one could believe that to be the case. Just as "left" and "right" are only relative to the particular time in question.

As a libertarian, who hates the theory of socialism (read: stage of communist [d]evolution), I have trouble even myself knowing which label to apply to myself. I guess that I represent the maximum extreme "left" socially and the maximum extreme "right" economically. Perhaps I should qualify that so that NAMBLA on the "left" (you know, the man-boy love association hehe ) doesn't start contributing funds to the Libertarian Party. And we certainly don't want economic "conservatives" on the "right" who believe in the Federal Reserve (read: The reserve of human chattel serving the banking families).

I am for the absolute maximum of human freedom, unrestricted by religious or moral ethos, as long as it does directly harm the exercise of same for othes. Very liberal indeed. The reason the wannabe "liberals" in this nation won't bite is because that libertarianism does not provide funding for such activities. Read the first sentence again. Subsidizing, rewarding, or otherwise "helping" people for particular exercise of said freedom would impinge or negate the freedom of another. Not only have we just shaken the fake "liberals" from our shoes, but the "religious" right as well.

Don't stand and applaud just yet freedom-loving economic "conservatives". If you consider yourself one of these, but also believe in your fiat currency, well you are not a libertarian either. The fiat currency is the largest destroyer of freedom in the world. Your masters will reassure you that things are more "stable" and the Godvernment functions more smoothly with this power to create wealth out of thin air. These statements are true. They are "stable" because only one interest is represented in the economy. Their is no fluctuation in the desire to have the entire populace produce wealth for those who have been granted the right to control and print worthless pieces of paper. Perhaps "stable" should be viewed as: 1 a place to store animals instead of 2. resistant to change. Either way both apply. Also, whether the "right" wants to admit it or not, the fake "liberals" correctly point out that socialist policies toward business are evil. (Although said "liberals" think socialist policy inflicted upon people is fine )

So "left" and "right" can continue to battle it out over who gets to victimize whom while no matter who wins, we as a people, are doomed. In the end, I suppose libertarians, are the only group that really represent human freedom.

Taking history into context, I am a true liberal. So when you guys on the "right" want to bash your opponents, realize that the "liberals" that you bash are not really liberals at all. They are very conservative indeed wanting to return to old theories and practices like those of Stalin and FDR.
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Old 02-26-2009, 10:31 AM
 
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Quote:
In fact, Catholics came back to power under Edward's sister Mary, and in 1556, Cranmer, like Tyndale before him, was burned at the stake. But as England swung between Catholicism and Anglicanism, the idea of a Bible in the common tongue had taken hold. It flourished in multiple versions. The Geneva Bible (the choice of the growing Puritan movement, which sought a return to a purist, poor church modeled after that of the time of Christ), the Doway Catholic English Bible, and the official Anglican Bishop's Bible fought for the minds and spirits of English citizens.

King James of Scotland, who came to power in 1603, called the Hampton Court Conference in order to work out a compromise with English Puritans and to unite the feuding religious factions. The outcome was the commissioning of a new authorized version of the Bible (published in 1611) that would satisfy all parties; the version became known as the King James Bible. Much of the language used hearkens back to Tyndale's translation. This new Bible made Tyndale's words central to Protestantism in the English-speaking world thereafter.

Those Puritans who were not satisfied with the compromise (they accepted the new translation, but could not accept the structure of the Anglican Church) left England, settling in the American colonies but bringing with them the King James version of the Bible. Its language -- and with it the words and ideas of Wycliffe, Tyndale, Cranmer, and the other pioneering translators of Scripture -- would be woven into the fabric of the new nation.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/prev...ble/index.html


Not going to church wasn't really an option back then.

And you don't understand our system. It's entirely built on growth from SS to the monetary system. China grew because of our needs and wants. Otherwise that oppressive regime (which it still is) would never succeed. Ask yourself why the Chinese are so worried about economic troubles...





That didn't happen by accident.
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Old 02-26-2009, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
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BTW - One of the economic reasons for our revolution was to free colonial manufactures from economic domination by english monopolies.
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Old 02-26-2009, 11:04 AM
 
Location: Holly Springs, NC USA
3,457 posts, read 4,634,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
BTW - One of the economic reasons for our revolution was to free colonial manufactures from economic domination by english monopolies.
So when do you predict the next revolution to free ourselves from economic domination by government monopolies?
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Old 02-26-2009, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Arizona
5,408 posts, read 7,769,602 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
You mean those Europeans that would all be Germans now. There is a reason we grew faster than they did. Taxes and big government hinders the people and the growth of the economy. Religious freedoms are wonderful for the people and liberating people from oppressive regimes is also good. But you folks don't really believe any of that... You would of course if Iraq had been freed from Clinton though..... or any other democrat. But a republican does it and it's evil...
Europe and the US have fairly comparable economies when you take into account size of populations. Religious freedoms are indeed wonderful. Thank goodness we now have progressive leadership that understand this and will no longer march our soldiers off to battle under pretense of "doing God's work" or try to force their morality on individuals in our society.

"Liberating people from oppressive regimes" does not pass the litmus test of being a national security concern and our troops should not be used as global policemen, period.
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Old 02-26-2009, 11:42 AM
 
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YouTube - Prayer, God and War: The Media Elites v. Palin, Clinton, JFK, FDR, and Lincoln

Quote:
does not pass the litmus test of being a national security concern and our troops should not be used as global policemen, period.
USAID: Assistance for Iraq - A Year In Iraq (http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/ayeariniraq.html - broken link)

and

You haven't learned yet that this world is intertwined. Any dictator that has massive oil reserves (at least while we are addicted like we are to it) and is removed is always a positive for our national security unless another more repressive regime is installed.
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